Elite over Econet (BBC Master, 6502SP, BBC Micro)

[MarkMoxon]

Elite doesn't normally load over Econet... but it does now!

[UPDATE: I have now released a version for the BBC Micro. Instructions below have been edited accordingly.]

Inspired by this thread, I've put together updated versions of BBC Micro, BBC Master and 6502 Second Processor Elite that should work when loaded from a fileserver over Econet.

Once installed, users can log in to the network and do either *EliteB, *EliteM or *EliteSP to play a fully working version of BBC Micro, BBC Master or 6502SP Elite respectively (the latter should work on both the BBC Master Turbo and BBC Micro with co-pro). You can either install it for all users, or on an individual basis.

Commander files are saved in an Elite directory in each individual user's main directory, so everyone has their own collection of save files. The game binaries live in just one place, on the fileserver.

New users just need to create an Elite directory in their main directory, and they too can play Elite.

I would love to have some feedback on whether this works for others. I have tested both versions on my Econet with three machines (Arc, Master, Beeb) and Level 4 running on the Arc. I've been running Elite on each of the 8-bit machines while hammering the network between the other two, and it seems fine. Trying to *NOTIFY a machine that is playing Elite doesn't seem to crash anything, and I think all the file operations work properly, but I'm just one tester on one network.

If anyone is up for trying this on their Econet-connected Master and/or 6502SP machine, I would love to know what happens. You can download the disc from the following link and install with the instructions below:

https://www.bbcelite.com/versions/elite ... econet.ssd

For the interested, both versions have been altered so they no longer clash with Econet workspaces in zero page and page &B, and perform file operations that are compatible with the NFS directory system. The Master version has also been updated to claim and release NMIs to prevent interruption from the network.

The Master version is based on the Compact release, so it supports digital joysticks and should work on both the Master 128 and Master Compact.

Installation instructions (updated for the latest version)

1. Create a directory called $.EliteGame on the server and copy all G.* files into the directory

2. Create a directory called EliteCmdrs in the top level of each user's main directory, and copy the C.* files there

3. Copy all the L.* files into $.Library and $.Library1 (if you want all users to be able to play Elite)

Or copy them into the EliteCmdrs in each user's main directory (if you want to restrict it to those users only)

4. Users can then play Elite by typing:

*Elite

If you copied L.* into the user's directory, they will need to use *DIR to go to that directory first

5. Commander files will be saved into the individual user's EliteCmdrs folder

Note 1: If you want to install the Elite binaries in step 1 into a different directory (i.e. not $.EliteGame), then you need to use a hex editor on the EliteB, EliteM and EliteSP binaries to include the path of the new directory. Simply change the *DIR $.EliteGame string at the end of each binary to point to your new directory instead, and everything should work - just make sure that the string is still terminated by a &0D carriage return character. So if you want to install Elite in $.Games.Elite, edit the end of each binary to *DIR $.Games.Elite (followed by &0D).

Note 2: If a user tries to run Elite but doesn't have a $.EliteCmdrs folder in their main user directory, the game will not load.

Full installation instructions are here: https://www.bbcelite.com/hacks/elite_ov ... loads.html

***

If you have a go, do please let me know how you get on! This is early release software, and I'm still getting my head around Econet, but see how you get on...

Mark

[KenLowe]

Excellent .

I'll be giving this a try from my PiFS shortly...

[KenLowe]

I've just given this a very quick test and it's loading nicely to my beeb with Co-Pro, and to my Master.

I've not tried anything too challenging yet, like loading and saving game state.

In my rush to give this a test, I never read the ReadMe thoroughly enough, and wondered why it wouldn't load on my standard beeb .

[MarkMoxon]

I've just given this a very quick test and it's loading nicely to my beeb with Co-Pro, and to my Master.

Great! Thanks Ken, that's really good to hear.

In my rush to give this a test, I never read the ReadMe thoroughly enough, and wondered why it wouldn't load on my standard beeb .

Ha, yeah, I did look at trying to get this working on a standard BBC Micro, but Econet needs an extra page of memory on top of the zero page bytes, and there's no way of doing that without dropping features, which isn't quite the same.

Good job there all these incredibly clever people selling co-pro adapters! (I've been using one of yours to test this - lovely piece of kit, thank you!).

Mark

[BeebMaster]

I think the better thing to do (especially as Masters tend to use Library1 as their library directory) is to put all the files in a directory called Elite, and change the loader so that it doesn't do a *DIR LIBRARY. (Files in the library can be *RUN anyway without changing directory to it).

If all the files are in "Elite" then we can make a user called Elite, and this will make the user root directory for that user into Elite, so *DIR would then return to this directory, and *DIR ELITE wouldn't be necessary (and wouldn't work if it is preceded by *DIR).

ELITE could be renamed to !Boot and OPT 4,2 set so that it is *RUN when the user logs on as *I AM ELITE.

Also I noticed in ELTSP there is still a *DIR E which should be removed.

[BeebMaster]

Plus near the beginning of ELTPC is ":0.E.JAMESON" which won't work as a file path on Econet.

[MarkMoxon]

If all the files are in "Elite" then we can make a user called Elite, and this will make the user root directory for that user into Elite, so *DIR would then return to this directory, and *DIR ELITE wouldn't be necessary (and wouldn't work if it is preceded by *DIR).

ELITE could be renamed to !Boot and OPT 4,2 set so that it is *RUN when the user logs on as *I AM ELITE.

So I'm trying to create a system where you log in with your personal account and have access to your unique set of Elite save files in your own user directory, rather than having one account shared between all people wanting to play the game. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, as I don't really know if this is an Econet-type approach or just something I assumed from Unix - but that's why I went down the *DIR then *DIR ELITE route, as the game needs the directory set to the save directory to work. Is this a valid approach?

The game binaries need to live in just one place - at the moment this is the library, which feels like the right place for shared binaries, especially as I want people to be able to do *ELITE to play Elite. Again, not sure if I got this right? Also, for it to work, I need to *DIR into the directory containing the binaries, as some of them *LOAD each other, and that doesn't work with the library (only *XXX seems to work that way).

Also not sure what to do about Library vs Library1. If something isn't in Library1, does it then look in Library anyway?

So many questions, sorry!

Also I noticed in ELTSP there is still a *DIR E which should be removed.

I've disabled the code that uses that string, so you can ignore it - it isn't actually used any more.

Plus near the beginning of ELTPC is ":0.E.JAMESON" which won't work as a file path on Econet.

I've altered the code so it only uses the filename from the sixth character onwards. This meant I didn't have to change any of the the code that populates this string, which is fairly complex. It's good to keep changes to a minimum.

Incidentally, did you manage to get it working? I would genuinely love to know, especially as I wouldn't have been able to develop this without the Master Econet card you recently sent. Works perfectly, thank you for that!

Mark

[KenLowe]

So I'm trying to create a system where you log in with your personal account and have access to your unique set of Elite save files in your own user directory, rather than having one account shared between all people wanting to play the game. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, as I don't really know if this is an Econet-type approach or just something I inherited from Unix - but that's why I went down the *DIR then *DIR ELITE route, as the game needs the directory set to the save directory to work. Is this a valid approach?

The game binaries need to live in just one place - at the moment this is the library, which feels like the right place for shared binaries, especially as I want people to be able to do *ELITE to play Elite. Again, not sure if I got this right?

I like the way you've done it, so that each user has their own set of save files. We do something similar with the Ozmoo adventures. However, I'm not so sure the files should be stored in the Library folder. My preference would be to have the files stored somewhere in a shared 'Games' area (eg $.GAMES.ELITE) of the FileServer that all users can get access to, and then have a small loader in each Users home directory that runs the executable from the correct directory. That way we could still have an 'Elite' user that auto runs the game. Again, this is similar to how we've set it up for Ozmoo.

[BeebMaster]

Yes, I can see that having everything in an Elite user might be bad. Someone could steal somebody else's saved gave! But I agree with Ken, Library probably isn't the best place for the actual game code.

Maybe still have all the game code in $.Elite, or an Elite subdirectory and then a small loader (in $.Library, which would have to be replicated in $.Library1 for Master compatibility) which changes the library to the location of the Elite files. Then *ELITE or *ELITESP would work from anywhere, and *DIR would return to the user's own directory for saving the game.

[MarkMoxon]

However, I'm not so sure the files should be stored in the Library folder.

Maybe still have all the game code in $.Elite, or an Elite subdirectory and then a small loader (in $.Library, which would have to be replicated in $.Library1 for Master compatibility) which changes the library to the location of the Elite files. Then *ELITE or *ELITESP would work from anywhere, and *DIR would return to the user's own directory for saving the game.

Thanks for the feedback. Really useful! I now understand that the library is not a place to fill with too much cruft.

I’ll see if I can stick the game binaries in $.Elite, with just the ELITE and ELITESP binaries in the library. I’m sure that will work well.

Thank you!

Mark

[MarkMoxon]

My preference would be to have the files stored somewhere in a shared 'Games' area (eg $.GAMES.ELITE) of the FileServer that all users can get access to, and then have a small loader in each Users home directory that runs the executable from the correct directory.

Maybe still have all the game code in $.Elite, or an Elite subdirectory and then a small loader (in $.Library, which would have to be replicated in $.Library1 for Master compatibility) which changes the library to the location of the Elite files. Then *ELITE or *ELITESP would work from anywhere, and *DIR would return to the user's own directory for saving the game.

I've updated the SSD to support both of these approaches. I've also renamed the loaders to be clearer about the versions they run - they are now called *EliteM and *EliteSP. See the first post for updated installation instructions.

You can either install these loaders in the libraries (so they can be run by all users), or you can install them for individual users.

The game binaries now live in their own directory outside the libraries. This directory is $.Elite by default, but it can be changed.

If you'd rather have the game binaries in a different directory (e.g. $.Games.Elite), then I have re-designed the loaders so they can easily be hex-edited with a new directory path (see the instructions in the first post). I'll also release the BeebAsm project for this once it's ready, so you can also use that to generate an SSD image with your own paths baked in, without the need for hex-editing.

Hopefully this version addresses all the concerns above - I'd love to know how you get on!

Mark

[BeebMaster]

Ha, yeah, I did look at trying to get this working on a standard BBC Micro, but Econet needs an extra page of memory on top of the zero page bytes, and there's no way of doing that without dropping features, which isn't quite the same.

If we use JGH's DFS 1.22:

https://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Filing/FixDNFS/

...which reclaims a page so the setting of PAGE drops to &1800, does that help?

[MarkMoxon]

Ha, yeah, I did look at trying to get this working on a standard BBC Micro, but Econet needs an extra page of memory on top of the zero page bytes, and there's no way of doing that without dropping features, which isn't quite the same.

If we use JGH's DFS 1.22:

https://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Filing/FixDNFS/

...which reclaims a page so the setting of PAGE drops to &1800, does that help?

Interesting! I guess it depends on whether this version lets me set PAGE to &1100.

I got that 'extra page of memory' calculation from my Beeb, where if I unplug ADFS 1.30 and DFS 2.20 and just leave DFS,NET enabled (which contains NFS 3.60), then PAGE drops to &1200, which is only &100 higher than the value needed for BBC Micro disc Elite (the game code loads at &1100). If I did the same with the fixed version of DNFS instead, would it drop PAGE to &1100, I wonder?

If anyone knows the answer, let me know, otherwise I'll give it a go anyway to see. If PAGE can drop to &1100 with this fix, then this might be what we need. Thanks for pointing it out!

Mark

[BeebMaster]

Ha, yeah, I did look at trying to get this working on a standard BBC Micro, but Econet needs an extra page of memory on top of the zero page bytes, and there's no way of doing that without dropping features, which isn't quite the same.

If we use JGH's DFS 1.22:

https://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Filing/FixDNFS/

...which reclaims a page so the setting of PAGE drops to &1800, does that help?

Interesting! I guess it depends on whether this version lets me set PAGE to &1100.

I got that 'extra page of memory' calculation from my Beeb, where if I unplug ADFS 1.30 and DFS 2.20 and just leave DFS,NET enabled (which contains NFS 3.60), then PAGE drops to &1200, which is only &100 higher than the value needed for BBC Micro disc Elite (the game code loads at &1100). If I did the same with the fixed version of DNFS instead, would it drop PAGE to &1100, I wonder?

If anyone knows the answer, let me know, otherwise I'll give it a go anyway to see. If PAGE can drop to &1100 with this fix, then this might be what we need. Thanks for pointing it out!

Mark

Probably not - I think DFS 1.22 optimises the DFS utils to save a page, so I would expect with DFS within DNFS disabled (ie. on a 1770 machine) then PAGE would still be at &1200.

[markusher]

Just tried it from both a Pi fileserver and a Filestore, over an ethernet bridge and it is fine. Games runs.
Also tried with a MASTER ET - possibly the first time Elite has run on such a machine as it has no disk or tape interface.

On the Master ET (which has a different OS but ANFS is still 4.25) the machine is logged out of both the Pi and FileStore fileservers. If I try to save/load/catalogue a disc, it says Who are you? Master 128 is fine.

[fuzzel]

When I saw the discussion about Econet Elite my initial thought was, wow, a multiplayer version, rather than the standard version playable over an Econet network. My curiosity aroused, I did a search on stardot for multiplayer Elite and came across this posting by adcduggan:
https://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewt ... 04#p276504

I did think about planet landings, and multi-player, for Elite-A. But there are some pretty fundamental problems with doing that on the original BBC B, mostly related to memory and the coordinate system.

The memory for the original was already very tight. I managed to squeeze little bits out, enough that I could do some dirty tricks with overlays (for the encyclopedia), and add some more features. It's possible that I could have tried to use an overlay for a planet landing, but it would effectively have been a completely separate game within the game, and I didn't want to design and write that.

The coordinate system makes multi-player difficult to impossible, because it's ship-centric. IIRC, other objects are stored as relative polar coordinates from the ship, so a frame transformation would have been necessary between players. There's just not enough memory or processing power available at the default BBC B speeds. Nor a fast enough link. Econet uses too much valuable space, and I'd already done some dirty tricks with the overlays to use the 8271 NMI space (this is the reason that Elite-A has trouble with some emulators; it uses the 8271 disc ready indication to determine that the DFS has released the NMI space at &D00, and then re-uses that memory. If the emulator doesn't have that signal implemented, it will overwrite the NMI routine while it's in use.)

So it sounds almost like a non-starter. Almost... What could possibly work is if the multiplayer version consisted of a combat scenario with two players only where player 1's coordinates would be the opposite of player 2's so only a small amount of information would need to be exchanged between them, although it would have to be updated very quickly. Other ships could be completely ignored as could the trading / docked at space station elements.
Just a thought anyway.

[MarkMoxon]

Just tried it from both a Pi fileserver and a Filestore, over an ethernet bridge and it is fine. Games runs.

Brilliant - thank you for testing it.

Also tried with a MASTER ET - possibly the first time Elite has run on such a machine as it has no disk or tape interface.

On the Master ET (which has a different OS but ANFS is still 4.25) the machine is logged out of both the Pi and FileStore fileservers. If I try to save/load/catalogue a disc, it says Who are you? Master 128 is fine.

Do any of the emulators run MOS 4.00 or pretend to be an ET? And is there a memory usage map for this version? If the Econet workspace has moved at all then things would clearly go a bit wrong, but this isn’t a version I know anything about. I didn't even know the ET had a different MOS until just now!

Any suggestions gladly received, as it would be fun to be able to bring 6502 Elite to a brand new machine, as that probably hasn't been done since the NES version in 1991...

Mark

[BeebMaster]

I can't immediately think why the Master ET would behave any differently than the Master 128. The only thing I can think causing the Who are you? error is if something has changed the Econet station number temporarily so the file servers think they are hearing from a different station, but again if that's happening on ET I would expect it to happen on M128 as well. Be interesting to see what the file server log says.

[MarkMoxon]

I can't immediately think why the Master ET would behave any differently than the Master 128. The only thing I can think causing the Who are you? error is if something has changed the Econet station number temporarily so the file servers think they are hearing from a different station, but again if that's happening on ET I would expect it to happen on M128 as well. Be interesting to see what the file server log says.

Just spotted that https://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/BBC/AllMem says that the same memory map applies to the Master ET as the 128 and Compact, so the station number should be at &0B01. In theory, I've stopped Elite from writing anything there (it normally stores ship data for the hangar in page &B).

Makes me wonder if Econet Elite works on the Master Compact - not sure if it's been tried on one of those yet?

Mark

[BeebMaster]

I wonder. There is an ANFS CMOS option to relocate the workspace in pages &B-&C to &E-F. So potentially if that option is set, and Elite is using pages E and F, it could cause a problem. I wonder if Mark Usher has this setting on his Master ET?

[BeebMaster]

Possibly a red herring, if I use *OPT 6,1 to shift the workspace (increases PAGE by &200) then Elite still works, and I can see the catalogue if I answer Y to Load new commander to go into the file menu.

[markusher]

*FX 6,0 / 6,1 makes no difference to me either.

I loaded the MOS set for the Master ET into BeeBEm and that works. Real hardware doesn't.
The disc catalogues.

On real MASTER ET hardware I get
Who are you?

If I turn on the Co-Pro in BeebEm for either the MASTER 128 or the Master ET the catalogue is corrupted. The same on real hardware with an external Acorn 6502 copro, the catalogue is corrupted. Same from either a Pi file server or a FileStore (pretty much the same as an L3 fileserver). Load and save works.

[MarkMoxon]

Oh yes, good catch! If you have lots of files in your commander folder, the catalogue wraps poorly and overwrites itself. That'll be because the catalogue code in the 6502SP version is designed to work with DFS, while the Master Compact version fixes this for ADFS (and by extension NFS) by cataloguing in one column. That should be an easy enough fix - I'll get onto it. Thanks for the report.

I don't think this will help with the ET disconnect issue, though. Musical Elite also had a bug that only appeared on real hardware and not in the emulators, and that quite a bit tricker to pin down... Hmm.

Mark

[markusher]

The catalogue works fine in the non-sp version on the Master128 on the same Network directory.

I'll see if I can look at some log files from the server to see if it gives any clues to what is happening. My first thought was that it is using the default file server rather than the one I was loading Elite from (yes, multiple file servers and multiple networks - don't ask ). However, that is not the issue.

[MarkMoxon]

The catalogue works fine in the non-sp version on the Master128 on the same Network directory.

Yes, the problem is only with the 6502 Second Processor version, as it was originally built for cataloguing DFS discs.

Anyway, I have ported over the cataloguing and deleting code from the Compact version into the 6502SP version of Elite for Econet, and the updated version is available in the usual place - this link:

https://www.bbcelite.com/versions/elite ... econet.ssd

Hopefully this addresses the messy catalogue issue!

Mark

[markusher]

will have a go with that.

I've checked the fileserver logs. The station number is being corrupted. From 22 it changes to 129 when a catalogue is requested. I expect this works in the emulator as the station number is supplied from an internal variable which reads the CMOS only at boot time.

[MarkMoxon]

will have a go with that.

I've checked the fileserver logs. The station number is being corrupted. From 22 it changes to 129 when a catalogue is requested. I expect this works in the emulator as the station number is supplied from an internal variable which reads the CMOS only at boot time.

Hmm, the Master I'm testing on has station number 129, so even if it is happening to me, I wouldn't notice it. Might change the number and see what happens.

Is the CMOS being corrupted, do you know? i.e. does the station number get permanently reset by Elite, or is it just a temporary thing? If the latter, presumably it's the local copy of the station number in &0B01 being corrupted.

Don't suppose anyone has an Econet-enabled Master Compact, do they? Bit of a long-shot, but I'm curious as to whether things also go wrong with a real Compact, seeing as it runs MOS 5.00 and the ET has MOS 4.00.

Mark

[BeebMaster]

There are some Econet Master Compacts about, JGH and Ian J have one, probably others. Including me, but it's not here, nor my ET. I'd really like to know how come the ET gives this Who are you?/Station number corruption error when the M128 doesn't.

In 2024 I am planning an enhanced BeebRoom with a greater variety of machines on my Econet, including Electron, ET, Compact, FileStore and MDFS, all of which are currently absent.

[KenLowe]

Out of interest... those who have a Master ET - what happens if you change the station number to 129?

[markusher]

The catalogue works fine now on the SP version.
When you put them side by side there are a few differences. Title, colour and interestingly the Front Shield/Aft Shield and Shield 1,2,3,4 in the console are filled in the SP version.

EDIT Scratch this bit
Interestingly the Library seems to have been reset to $.Library, whereas at logon and before loading elite it is $.Library1
If I change the Library to something else, e.g. ArthurLib before executing *ELITEM, when I press 3 for a catalogue, I always get the channel error. Is the Library display limited to 7chars? thus it is Library1 but getting cut off?[/super][/super]
end EDIT seems ok now.

The SP version shows the competition number when saving, the M128 doesn't. The SP version doesn't have the menu option 5 - Default Jameson that the M128 has.

Thankfully the saves seem compatible between the two versions.

Setting the Master ET as station 129 solves the issue and it is possible to load/save/catalogue. The CMOS isn't corrupted so it will be the station byte in the workspace as you say. Strange that the Master 128 is ok (v3.20) - I haven't tested 3.50 yet. When pressing Break on the Master ET I get the message "Bad NET checksum" indicating that the station has been corrupted.