BBC Micro Elite... with music! (BBC Micro, 6502SP, Master)

[Yrrah2]

Just tried on a real Master with MultiOS running 3.50 and MMFS

Loads and plays the music on the title screen just fine. However, if you ‘Y’ to load new commander, then ‘3’ to Catalogue Disk and ‘0’ for the drive, you’re treated to a musical chord whilst the catalogue remains on-screen

MOS 3.20 is also nicely tuneful (though does anybody make a dummy’s (me) volume control for a Master?) and also plays a chord whilst cataloguing a disc.

Strange, my master doesn't give that chord.
Using a ram FS from retroclinic.

Cheers

[james]

It's just Master running Multi OS with MOS 3.20 selected and MMFS.

But it does like to play a chord...

IMG_7047s.mov

(4.49 MiB) Downloaded 53 times

[Yrrah2]

Talking of (maybe) impossibilities (that are may or may not mentioned on youtube)……
Would it be possible not only to combine the music and flicker free Elite, but also add Elite A into the game?

[MarkMoxon]

Talking of (maybe) impossibilities (that are may or may not mentioned on youtube)……
Would it be possible not only to combine the music and flicker free Elite, but also add Elite A into the game?

I’d love to add both music and flicker-free to Elite-A! I’m not sure there’s enough room on the standard BBC Micro to do this, but it should be possible on the BBC Master and 6502 Second Processor (and I’ll still have a go at fitting it into a standard Beeb, even if it doesn’t turn out to be feasible).

The good news is that inspired by this thread, I have already started working on a project to combine as many extra features into Elite as I can, now that my NES analysis is done. I’m starting with the BBC Master first, as that’s the easiest one to target with all the bells and whistles, but that work should trickle down into the other versions, including Elite-A.

In other words, I’m on the case, so watch this space.

Mark

[Yrrah2]

grand!

And if you would come to that,
would that be a musical, Master-full of colour, flicker free Elite-A?
(this because Elite-A does not ron on my Master….)

[MarkMoxon]

grand!

And if you would come to that,
would that be a musical, Master-full of colour, flicker free Elite-A?
(this because Elite-A does not ron on my Master….)

Well, the first step is to get Elite-A working on a Master (as you’re right, it doesn’t work yet), and then to add full flicker-free, music and bug fixes. Adding colour should be possible, but that would have to come later, as it would be quite a lot more effort.

One step at a time! But that’s the plan, yes.

Mark

[Yrrah2]

Well, the first step is to get Elite-A working on a Master (as you’re right, it doesn’t work yet), and then to add full flicker-free, music and bug fixes. Adding colour should be possible, but that would have to come later, as it would be quite a lot more effort.

One step at a time! But that’s the plan, yes.

Mark

Sounds like an ambitious but great plan!

[MarkMoxon]

It's just Master running Multi OS with MOS 3.20 selected and MMFS.

...

But it does like to play a chord...

I've finally bought a real BBC Master for myself (thank you Santa!), and I can confirm that I also get the strange chord playing when I load a commander. The good news is that I can now replicate the issue, which means I might be able to find a fix. No promises, but I'm going to be doing some Elite hacking on my new system anyway, so I'll see if I can work out what's going on here...

Mark

[Yrrah2]

It's just Master running Multi OS with MOS 3.20 selected and MMFS.

...

But it does like to play a chord...

I've finally bought a real BBC Master for myself (thank you Santa!), and I can confirm that I also get the strange chord playing when I load a commander. The good news is that I can now replicate the issue, which means I might be able to find a fix. No promises, but I'm going to be doing some Elite hacking on my new system anyway, so I'll see if I can work out what's going on here...

Mark

Grand!

[MarkMoxon]

Spurred on by comments in this thread (see below), I've released a new version of musical Elite that implements some of the most popular suggestions and squashes a few bugs.

Download links can be found in the first post in this thread. Instructions on the new features can be found on the download page.

The BBC Master 128 and BBC Master Compact versions both have these new features:

• The game's volume setting now controls the music as well as the sound effects (pause the game with COPY and use < and > to change the volume)

• Sound effects are now disabled while music is playing (as otherwise they corrupt the music)

• The starting volume honours the Quiet/Loud configuration option, with the game starting at half volume when the *CONFIGURE state is set to Quiet

• I've fixed the random noise that was playing on real hardware when accessing the disc

• I've fixed a bug where filing system errors (like "file not found") would crash the game

The BBC Micro and 6502 Second Processor versions have these new features:

• I've backported the BBC Master's volume controls to the Beeb version, so you can pause the game with COPY and then use < and > to change the volume of the music and the sound effects

• Sound effects are now disabled while music is playing (as otherwise they corrupt the music)

The BBC Micro volume control is a game-changer for those of us who have to stuff a sock into the loudspeaker grille when playing Elite in the wee hours!

I have tested these on real hardware (now that I finally have a real BBC Master) and on both MOS 3.20 and 3.50 on the Master, but if you do find any bugs, please let me know.

I hope you like it!

To answer specific points raised in this thread:

If you're interested, I have some volume code in Prince of Persia you might be able to reuse...

EDIT: I say 'I' but actually the code was all written by simondotm.

Thanks Kieran - that did the job nicely! I had to write my own hacks for the sound effects, but without your volume code I wouldn't even have tried...

Master should have a quiet mode in *CONFIGURE, but I don't know if elite respects it, I don't!

Thanks tricky, I wouldn't have thought about Quiet mode without you mentioning it, but the title music for Elite is so loud on full volume that I just had to add support for a quieter start. Thanks for the suggestion.

The only thing I noticed was that loading a commander (in this case the Max cheat commander included on the disk) triggered the music after putting in the drive number. The commander still loads and the game still works, so it's not a big deal.

Fixed! Thanks for reporting this, it was down to me storing the music variables in the zero page block that gets swapped out during disc operations, so when the disc filing system wrote to those same locations, it could randomly trigger the music routines. All fixed now, I hope!

Strange, my master doesn't give that chord.
Using a ram FS from retroclinic.

I assume that RAM FS doesn't write to the same locations in zero page as DFS, so it didn't trigger the music? Hopefully RAM FS still works fine.

Would it be possible not only to combine the music and flicker free Elite, but also add Elite A into the game?

I've now started work on combining the music and flicker-free mods into the BBC Master version. I'll open a new thread when I have something to show...

Mark

[Ukwebb]

simply amazing work
can't wait for the super duper version now !!

and to think Mr's Braben and Bell thought they'd got all they could out of the beeb

[james]

can't wait for the super duper version now !!

Give Mark 5 more minutes, and he'll have a version running on the ARM co-pro, with Music 5000 tunes and using red/greeen glasses for 3D.

A Gotek has just arrived in the post. So I should put the new Elite on it and give it a go!

[bob147]

Great news, I look forward to trying it out on the real hardware asap. Particularly now I can turn the volume down (I always had to be quite careful choosing when to play previously!)

Looking forward to the flicker free iteration as well, it amazes me that you continue to find news ways to tweak and enhance the classic.

[kieranhj]

Give Mark 5 more minutes, and he'll have a version running on the ARM co-pro, with Music 5000 tunes and using red/green glasses for 3D.

Funny you should mention anaglyph 3D. I made an Archimedes demo in red/cyan anaglyph last year, and after running through all the maths and techniques involved it did occur to me to suggest this to Mark…

It does require plotting everything twice, which would put quite a bit of pressure on the old Beeb, and potentially halve the frame rate, but it might be viable for the copro version…

[MarkMoxon]

Give Mark 5 more minutes, and he'll have a version running on the ARM co-pro, with Music 5000 tunes and using red/green glasses for 3D.

Funny you should mention anaglyph 3D. I made an Archimedes demo in red/cyan anaglyph last year, and after running through all the maths and techniques involved it did occur to me to suggest this to Mark…

It does require plotting everything twice, which would put quite a bit of pressure on the old Beeb, and potentially halve the frame rate, but it might be viable for the copro version…

Ha! That would be mad. I was playing with the Master co-pro version earlier today and it runs ridiculously fast, quite noticeably faster than the BBC Micro co-pro version. So it’s definitely a candidate platform.

If it’s a case of plotting two lines for every one, that’s probably OK, but I guess it depends on how much maths is needed to calculate the coordinates of the red and cyan lines.

It sounds worth investigating, anyway, as a proper 3D Elite on a Beeb would be an epic adventure. Let me know more about it, if you’re up for it!

Mark

[kieranhj]

Ha! That would be mad. I was playing with the Master co-pro version earlier today and it runs ridiculously fast, quite noticeably faster than the BBC Micro co-pro version. So there’s a candidate platform.

If it’s a case of plotting two lines for every one, that’s probably OK, but I guess it depends on how much maths is needed to calculate the coordinates of the red and cyan lines.

It sounds worth investigating, anyway, as a proper 3D Elite on a Beeb would be an epic adventure. Let me know more about it, if you’re up for it!

Mark

I'm always making more work for you Mark. Sadly it's more than just plotting each line twice - really you need to render the scene from two different cameras, one for each eye, shifted left & right. You'd also need to use the Master version as you need 3 colours when plotting pixels - red, cyan and white (for when the left & right images overlap). Finally, ideally it's best to introduce a skew to offset the left & right images so there is a focal point, otherwise everything is always 'in front of the screen' which can be straining on the eyes. The skew factor moves the focal point to the screen surface so objects can go both 'into' and pop 'out of' the screen.

If you're still interested, I can send you some more materials and info on how I approached it...

[MarkMoxon]

Sadly it's more than just plotting each line twice - really you need to render the scene from two different cameras, one for each eye, shifted left & right.

Here's a quick calculation. The 6502SP version of Elite supports up to 18 ships in the bubble, while the standard BBC Micro version supports 10. The 6502SP version of Elite was released for the 3MHz cheese wedge co-pro, and the Master Turbo's 65C12 co-pro runs at 4Mhz, so Elite on the Master Turbo should support quite a few more than 18.

So assuming the figure of 18 ships from the 6502SP version wasn't just plucked from the air by the devs, it feels as if the Master Turbo could support double the number of ships from the original BBC Micro version... or the same number of ships as the original, but with each ship calculated and drawn twice, once in red and once in cyan.

You'd also need to use the Master version as you need 3 colours when plotting pixels - red, cyan and white (for when the left & right images overlap).

So space effectively goes back to being monochrome? Sounds more and more like classic BBC Micro Elite, but on the Master Turbo, and in 3D!

Finally, ideally it's best to introduce a skew to offset the left & right images so there is a focal point, otherwise everything is always 'in front of the screen' which can be straining on the eyes. The skew factor moves the focal point to the screen surface so objects can go both 'into' and pop 'out of' the screen.

If you're still interested, I can send you some more materials and info on how I approached it...

That would be amazing, thanks! I can see a path to drawing each ship twice, and the idea of shifting the left and right viewpoints along the x-axis is easy enough, but the finer details of the algorithm (like the skew) would be really interesting to know about.

Also, I wonder how one would make glasses to match the Beeb's palette. It's starting to feel like Blue Peter round here!

Mark

[bob147]

Happy to report that there is silence when loading the commander and music at a pleasant volume with *configure quiet on real hardware. Well done yet again Mark. I was beginning to think you were going to run out of ideas soon, but red/blue 3d would be even more outrageous than teletext good luck with whatever project is next!

[MarkMoxon]

Happy to report that there is silence when loading the commander and music at a pleasant volume with *configure quiet on real hardware. Well done yet again Mark. I was beginning to think you were going to run out of ideas soon, but red/blue 3d would be even more outrageous than teletext good luck with whatever project is next!

That's great to hear - thanks for letting me know! The music is so much better at lower volumes, so that was worth doing.

I'm hoping to release another fun Elite project in the next few days, so watch this space. I'm not sure when I'll get around to Elite 3D, but Kieran has sent me the details, so I suspect I won't be able to resist for long!

Mark

[tricky]

What would you do with planets and the sun of you don't draw them twice?
They could be white at infinity, but then everything else would be in your face!

[MarkMoxon]

What would you do with planets and the sun of you don't draw them twice?
They could be white at infinity, but then everything else would be in your face!

I suspect planets and suns should be at infinity, so isn't white correct for these? Not sure what needs to happen when a ship flies in front of the sun, mind you.

Everything else would be closer, but not necessarily in your face. I guess it depends on the eye separation and skew.

Maybe things will become clearer if I end up building a prototype...

Mark

[mike12f]

I think white would be in the plane of the screen. So you wouldn't be able to call white infinity. I think to be at infinity you'd need the red and blue images to be eye-width apart from each other? (And in that case, I can't work out which way around red+blue should be, i.e. which is left and which is right?).

Blue+red on top of each other (i.e. white) = the plane of the screen.

And blue and red crossed over (i.e. opposite way around from when they were at infinity) = in front of the screen.

Is that correct? It's odd, because I don't remember any "3d" blue/red images being eye-width apart. They only ever seem to be a few mm apart.

[MarkMoxon]

I think white would be in the plane of the screen.

Thinking about it, I am not remotely sure about this! And the more I think about it, the more confused I am getting, so I could easily be talking complete nonsense.

If you look at something in the far distance, and close one eye and then do the same with the other eye, then the distant object doesn't move. Do it with a closer object, and the object jumps from side to side as you close one eye then the other. So shouldn't stuff in the far distance look the same through both red and cyan filters - i.e. be white? So white = infinity.

But then, looking into the far distance, both eyes should be looking forwards in parallel, which would mean eye-distance separation of red and blue on the screen, as you say. And it can’t be both that and white in the distance, so you could well be right.

Hmm, not sure about either of these now. Going to have to read those links Kieran sent me!

It's odd, because I don't remember any "3d" blue/red images being eye-width apart. They only ever seem to be a few mm apart.

Is that because your eyes are looking at a point, so their lines of sight converge, and by the time those lines of sight hit the screen, they are only a few mm apart?

At least... I think that's right?

Mark

[kieranhj]

mike12f is correct in that a pure white object would be at the focal depth of the camera. With skew this would be the plane of the screen and indeed the red/cyan swaps from being on the left & right side when the object is 'into' the screen to the right & left side when the object is 'popping out' of the screen. Yes it is confusing, yes you will be better off prototyping and trying it out to see if it works! (It might not be effective in motion... )

I'd forgotten about suns and planets. Those will be tough I think! Planets aren't at infinity and are drawn with lines, so ideally they'd also be drawn twice with the same left / right eye camera shifts as everything else. For suns I think all bets are probably off! It might be a case of plotting them white with red/cyan shimmer which will not place them correctly in the 3D scene but will make them REALLY INTENSE to view in anaglyph, which is probably akin to looking into the sun anyway.

[MarkMoxon]

mike12f is correct in that a pure white object would be at the focal depth of the camera.

Good job, mike12f! I didn’t intuit that at all.

I should probably just build it with two camera angles, one for each eye, and not try to think too much about what it should look like. Let the code do the hard work! It's making me cross-eyed.

I'd forgotten about suns and planets. Those will be tough I think!

Planets are certainly going to be a challenge, as there is only one planet line buffer, though I guess that's easy enough to duplicate. Same issue with the sun, though doubling up on both may really sap the CPU. At least the co-pro has lots of spare memory, so it should at least be buildable... in theory.

No idea when I’ll find the time, mind you. That’s a bigger challenge than the maths!

Mark

[tricky]

You could cheat with the space station and make that the distance to focus on when you are looking at it, how you change it if you look away, move and look back I don't know!
Cameras in games are hard and still not solved to my satisfaction!
I didn't play elite much, but seem to remember trying not to look at the sun for long
My brain always looks for problems before solutions!

[mike12f]

I can think of more challenges for a 3D elite...

How is the star dust done in Elite? I haven't studied the deep-dive, but I guess Elite is not assigning a true z-coordinate to each star dust particle. So because the Elite authors did not do the star-dust in proper 3d calculations (i.e. they used a hack), it would be necessary to invent a complete new hack to make them move in 3D!

Also, the planets in Elite have a hack in them where they are actually a simple orthographic projection from 3D to 2D to plot them - while adding a simple 2D rescaling factor for the whole planet 2D image. So it would be difficult to fix that to work it into 3D blue+red image with true z-coordinate calculations.... How about this for a hack though, would it work?: Draw the planet twice, with the blue image slightly displaced sideways along x-axis by an appropriate amount; and also for the blue image to draw the spinning planet-crater slightly more spun about the y-axis than the red crater. Hopefully this would make the planet crater appear in 3D in front of the planet sphere, and angled into the screen appropriately? Because the blue crater was spun slightly more than the red crater, the difference between them would hopefully have exactly the right distortion to make it look 3D. This hack might work, because in reality, the right eye should see the crater slightly more or less spun around the planet than the left eye sees it. I'll test this out in a high level language (I have a BASIC planet implementation published on another thread on here), once I can get my hands on some red/blue glasses. I'll post a result image here or on the other thread if it's successful.

[MarkMoxon]

Following suggestions earlier in this thread…

Looking forward to the flicker free iteration as well, it amazes me that you continue to find news ways to tweak and enhance the classic.

Is there a plan to get music on the Master version as-well?

I’m aiming to get the music and flicker-free planet hacks working with as many different versions of 6502 Elite as I can, with both hacks at the same time where possible.

…I have now released the Elite Compendium, which combines music, flicker-free, volume control and a bunch of other backported features, all exclusive to the BBC Master.

See this thread for details. Hope you like it!

Sadly it doesn't include 3D Elite yet. Looks like that might be quite a challenge! Maybe I’ll just do the ships first, see how that goes…

Mark

[james]

Sadly it doesn't include 3D Elite yet. Looks like that might be quite a challenge!

It wasn’t an entirely serious suggestion, though I’m pleased to see it’s not been dismissed out of hand

Theoretically, having the Compact’s ability to deal with ADFS might be useful. He suggested, having just taken delivery of a Pi 1MHz hard disc …

And with thanks for all of the work you’ve done on Elite

[MarkMoxon]

Sadly it doesn't include 3D Elite yet. Looks like that might be quite a challenge!

It wasn’t an entirely serious suggestion, though I’m pleased to see it’s not been dismissed out of hand

It's a great suggestion! A perfect mix of insanity and possibility.

Although...

I can think of more challenges for a 3D elite...

Ah, those are very good points! You're absolutely right, the stardust coordinates aren't actually 3D, and the planet is effectively a pancake hanging in the sky, so both of these would be pretty challenging in red/blue 3D.

So it sounds like a good place to start is to try creating a version of just the local bubble in Elite that looks good through 3D specs sounds. That's a pretty great project on its own... and if it leads to more 3D Elite stuff, that's good. Teletext Elite started with just the rotationg Cobra from the title screen, and it turned out to be easy to extend the sixel routines to the whole game. Anaglyph 3D might be more difficult to apply to the whole thing, but I reckon ships might well be doable, and that would be awesome in itself.

Though I would obviously love to see any solutions to the issues of suns, planets and stardust. The thought of a fully retro-futuristic 3D Elite that feels like it's been beamed from an alternate 1980s is pretty enticing.

Theoretically, having the Compact’s ability to deal with ADFS might be useful. He suggested, having just taken delivery of a Pi 1MHz hard disc …

And with thanks for all of the work you’ve done on Elite

That's a great idea. As a very happy user of both the Pi 1MHz and CF card hard disc solutions (one on the Beeb, one on the Master), I would love to be able to run the Compendium from ADFS. I can't see why it would be a problem, so I'll add that to the list. Thanks for the suggestion!

Mark