BBC Micro Elite... with music! (BBC Micro, 6502SP, Master)

[bob147]

I think the latest version might actually be the problem version? The version in your link still gives me the crash.

The version I grabbed a few days ago and pre-loaded onto my Gotek in anticipation of having time to play on real hardware seems to work ok. I have attached this seemingly working version for comparison in case that's helpful.

Either that or I'm getting very confused!

[MarkMoxon]

Very odd! I wonder if that browser like is being cached in the browser (it shouldn't, but it's possible, I guess).

Incidentally, you can check the build date on any version using *TYPE README when the disc is loaded.

• The version you've attached is from 2023-03-10. This one should work, though there is a very subtle bug that is incredibly rare that can corrupt the chart circles (though it doesn't crash if this happens).

• The bad version is from 2023-03-14. Don't use this one - that one definitely crashes when paused during flight. My mistake! I only released it yesterday. Sorry about that.

• I've just released a version from 2023-03-15 that should fix this latter bug, as well as the subtle chart bug. I'll attach it, just to be sure, but this is the one now on my site:

elite-master-music-sng47.ssd

(62 KiB) Downloaded 87 times

If this one is broken, then I have a problem! Seems to work OK for me. Here it is in the browser:

https://bbc.godbolt.org/?model=Master&a ... -sng47.ssd

I know that browsers cache JSBeeb links, so if you're having problems with this link, flushing the browser cache is a good idea. You can always do a CRTL-F12 and *TYPE README to check the build date of the disc being loaded into JSBeeb. If it isn't from 2023-03-15, then your browser is cacheing it.

If you have time to check the attached version, that would be fantastic!

Mark

[bob147]

Yep, you're right of course, it works absolutely fine. I will keep in mind in the future that my browser can do "helpful" things like that, apologies for the extra effort!

[MarkMoxon]

Yep, you're right of course, it works absolutely fine. I will keep in mind in the future that my browser can do "helpful" things like that, apologies for the extra effort!

Excellent! Thanks for letting me know. That'll teach me to release broken code...

Mark

[tricky]

Did you ever look at replacing the line drawing routines or do they look pretty good compared to the ones Kieranhj compared?

On the phone, but it's the music easily accessible as I would like to see how my encoder gets on with it.

[MarkMoxon]

Did you ever look at replacing the line drawing routines or do they look pretty good compared to the ones Kieranhj compared?

No, I haven't done anything with the line-drawing routines beyond the initial analysis and commentary. That was enough for me!

Not sure what you're referring to when you say "the ones Kieranhj compared" - is there a comparison of various routines somewhere? Sounds interesting!

On the phone, but it's the music easily accessible as I would like to see how my encoder gets on with it.

I don't understand this sentence, sorry! What are you after?

Mark

[MarkMoxon]

On the phone, but it's the music easily accessible as I would like to see how my encoder gets on with it.

I don't understand this sentence, sorry! What are you after?

Oh, are you after the music itself? I don't know how that works, but this is where the source lives for the Elite music files and player:

https://github.com/kieranhj/elite-music

And this is the source for the player, where you can also find out about the file format:

https://github.com/simondotm/vgm-player-bbc

Not sure if this helps?

Mark

[Yrrah2]

Definitely! I’m hoping it will be pretty easy to add, as the Master has sideways RAM and plenty of free memory when Elite is loaded. I should be able to include the hack for flicker-free planets as well, so it not only sounds good, but looks good too.

I’m aiming to get the music and flicker-free planet hacks working with as many different versions of 6502 Elite as I can, with both hacks at the same time where possible.

Mark

I tried the music version on my Master with 6502 running OS3.5, and during the loading process, I got the message it could not find any SWR.
Is this a bug?

And did you manage to combine the flicker free with the music?

Cheers

[MarkMoxon]

I tried the music version on my Master with 6502 running OS3.5, and during the loading process, I got the message it could not find any SWR.
Is this a bug?

When you say “with 6502”, do you mean it’s a BBC Master with a 6502 second processor fitted and enabled? I thought I’d tested this combination, but I could be wrong - I will check. I’m not sure if I tried 3.50 either - it’s been a while!

If you could also confirm which version of musical Elite you are running (i.e. Master or 6502SP) then I’ll gladly look into it for you. Also, I assume you have got sideways RAM enabled - just checking!

And did you manage to combine the flicker free with the music?

Not yet. I do have plans to release a Master version with all the current bells and whistles added, and maybe more, but I got distracted by analysing the NES version. It’s still on the list, though!

Mark

[Yrrah2]

I tried the music version on my Master with 6502 running OS3.5, and during the loading process, I got the message it could not find any SWR.
Is this a bug?

When you say “with 6502”, do you mean it’s a BBC Master with a 6502 second processor fitted and enabled? I thought I’d tested this combination, but I could be wrong - I will check. I’m not sure if I tried 3.50 either - it’s been a while!

If you could also confirm which version of musical Elite you are running (i.e. Master or 6502SP) then I’ll gladly look into it for you. Also, I assume you have got sideways RAM enabled - just checking!

With the 6502 I meant indeed a (real) Master with a CoPro. (So either 6502 or the 65C102)
I downloaded the "6502 Second Processor Elite with music" disc image from your site.

And when I tested it, MOS3.2 works fine, but MOS3.5 gives a SWR error while loading the music files in the beginning. And with the SWR is enabled.

Not yet. I do have plans to release a Master version with all the current bells and whistles added, and maybe more, but I got distracted by analysing the NES version. It’s still on the list, though!

Grand

Koen

[MarkMoxon]

I downloaded the "6502 Second Processor Elite with music" disc image from your site.

And when I tested it, MOS3.2 works fine, but MOS3.5 gives a SWR error while loading the music files in the beginning. And with the SWR is enabled.

Thanks for that - I can confirm I'm getting the exact same problem on MOS 3.50, so that's definitely a bug. It looks like the sideways RAM detection routines aren't working properly, so it looks like I never tested this on MOS 3.50 - apologies! I'll have a go at fixing it and will let you know how I get on...

Mark

[MarkMoxon]

And when I tested it, MOS3.2 works fine, but MOS3.5 gives a SWR error while loading the music files in the beginning. And with the SWR is enabled.

OK, I think I've fixed it. The latest version can be downloaded from the usual place:

https://www.bbcelite.com/hacks/bbc_elit ... loads.html

Both the BBC Master and 6502 Second Processor versions should now work with both MOS 3.20 and MOS 3.50. If you still have problems, let me know.

(Incidentally, some browsers cache downloads aggressively, so if you still have problems, it might be worth confirming that you definitely have the latest version by entering *TYPE README - the date in the README should be 2023-12-11.)

It turns out that the sideways RAM detection code wasn't setting the ROM bank in both &F4 and &FE30, and in MOS 3.50 that causes problems (and the SRLOAD routine was also incorrect, so I've fixed that too).

I hope this does the trick!

Mark

[bob147]

I'll give it a quick go on my stock master as well, gives me an excuse to dust it off again (not that I really needed one )

EDIT - works fine for me, all banks detected and loaded into bank 4. Music plays when expected. The only thing I noticed was that loading a commander (in this case the Max cheat commander included on the disk) triggered the music after putting in the drive number. The commander still loads and the game still works, so it's not a big deal. I'd just be interested to know if that's some oddity of my particular setup or not.

[Yrrah2]

Works perfect now!
Thanks!

Koen

[MarkMoxon]

The only thing I noticed was that loading a commander (in this case the Max cheat commander included on the disk) triggered the music after putting in the drive number. The commander still loads and the game still works, so it's not a big deal. I'd just be interested to know if that's some oddity of my particular setup or not.

I've tried to replicate this, but it all works fine for me - typical! Is this the standard Master 128 version? I've tried loading the MAX commander on 3.20 and 3.50, both from the title screen and the @ menu, and the music doesn't start playing when I choose the drive number - though I am using an emulator, not a real machine. What exact steps are you doing to trigger it? Perhaps I'm doing it in a different order...

Mark

[bob147]

It does sound like something unique to my rather flaky master, as I agree I couldn't get it to happen on emulators either. This is the standard master 128 version using Mos 3.5 loaded using a Gotek. Not to worry, it doesn't affect play. I think the music addon is my favourite of all your Elite hacks, it's just really nice to break up play by sitting back, switching on the docking computer and letting the music wash over you.

[MarkMoxon]

It does sound like something unique to my rather flaky master, as I agree I couldn't get it to happen on emulators either. This is the standard master 128 version using Mos 3.5 loaded using a Gotek. Not to worry, it doesn't affect play. I think the music addon is my favourite of all your Elite hacks, it's just really nice to break up play by sitting back, switching on the docking computer and letting the music wash over you.

Very odd. If anyone else out these can replicate this issue, then I'd be interested to know. I can't see any obvious cause in the code, but if this is an issue with real hardware only, that would be interesting in itself.

Anyway, really glad you like the music! Credit is obviously due to the clever people who created the music ROM in the first place - I just hooked it up to Elite. There's lots of information about who did what here.

Mark

[james]

Just tried on a real Master with MultiOS running 3.50 and MMFS

Loads and plays the music on the title screen just fine. However, if you ‘Y’ to load new commander, then ‘3’ to Catalogue Disk and ‘0’ for the drive, you’re treated to a musical chord whilst the catalogue remains on-screen

MOS 3.20 is also nicely tuneful (though does anybody make a dummy’s (me) volume control for a Master?) and also plays a chord whilst cataloguing a disc.

[tricky]

Master should have a quiet mode in *CONFIGURE, but I don't know if elite respects it, I don't!

[MarkMoxon]

Just tried on a real Master with MultiOS running 3.50 and MMFS

Loads and plays the music on the title screen just fine. However, if you ‘Y’ to load new commander, then ‘3’ to Catalogue Disk and ‘0’ for the drive, you’re treated to a musical chord whilst the catalogue remains on-screen

Thanks - so I assume this bug occurs on all real hardware and not just on bob147's "flaky Master". Interesting! I've tried b2 and beebjit with both MOS 3.20 and 3.50, and I can't get them to make any kind of strange chord, so the emulators definitely don't have this issue, which is intriguing too. I'm not sure how I go about fixing this if I can't replicate it... though at least it's not a game-breaker.

MOS 3.20 is also nicely tuneful (though does anybody make a dummy’s (me) volume control for a Master?) and also plays a chord whilst cataloguing a disc.

The original music ROM doesn't support volume control or quiet mode, so Elite doesn't either, though it would be possible to add it using code like this:

https://github.com/kieranhj/pop-beeb/bl ... #L348-L374

It's on my list of ideas, though admittedly it is a very long list, so don't wait up.

Mark

[james]

Master should have a quiet mode in *CONFIGURE, but I don't know if elite respects it, I don't!

The original music ROM doesn't support volume control or quiet mode, so Elite doesn't either, though it would be possible to add it using code like this:

I was thinking more of a physical volume control knob! But I'm being Off Topic. Sorry

[MarkMoxon]

I was thinking more of a physical volume control knob! But I'm being Off Topic. Sorry

I dunno, I think volume control for the music in Elite is very on-topic. I find the default volume quite wearing, quite quickly...

You might find this interesting, as it talks about how to do exactly what you want: viewtopic.php?t=17068

Mark

[kieranhj]

I dunno, I think volume control for the music in Elite is very on-topic. I find the default volume quite wearing, quite quickly...

If you’re interested in a software solution, then we (well simondotm) implemented volume control for the music player in POP. You might be able to steal some of the code, space permitting?

https://github.com/kieranhj/pop-beeb/bl ... player.asm

[MarkMoxon]

I dunno, I think volume control for the music in Elite is very on-topic. I find the default volume quite wearing, quite quickly...

If you’re interested in a software solution, then we (well simondotm) implemented volume control for the music player in POP. You might be able to steal some of the code, space permitting?

https://github.com/kieranhj/pop-beeb/bl ... player.asm

Great, that’s the link I already have in my to-do list - I think you may have already sent it to me at some point? Hopefully I’ll find time to look at it properly at some point!

Thanks Kieran.

Mark

[vexorg]

What's different about the C64 version, the original elite had a basic sounding version already

[MarkMoxon]

What's different about the C64 version, the original elite had a basic sounding version already

Acornsoft Elite (i.e. for the Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, 6502 Second Processor and BBC Master) doesn't have music of any kind, and neither does the Apple II version. The version for the Commodore 64, however, has two brand-new tunes - the title music and the docking music - both of which are also included in the NES version (along with two further pieces of music). It's these two C64 tunes that are included in the musical version of BBC Micro Elite.

I'm pretty the Blue Danube made it into various Z80 and PC versions, but I don't know exactly which ones...

Mark

[james]

(C64) two brand-new tunes - the title music and the docking music - both of which are also included in the NES version (along with two further pieces of music).

The NES has more music?

More music (and sound effects) to port to the Master?

Your to-do list must be never-ending

[MarkMoxon]

(C64) two brand-new tunes - the title music and the docking music - both of which are also included in the NES version (along with two further pieces of music).

The NES has more music?

More music (and sound effects) to port to the Master?

Your to-do list must be never-ending

Definitely beyond my skillset, that! I have no idea how the sound effects work in any of the Elite versions I've analysed - I don't even understood the ENVELOPE command in BASIC, if I'm honest. Documenting sound routines is one thing (I've done a lot of that), but understanding how sound data relates to the actual sounds you hear is completely beyond me.

Thankfully the Bitshifters took care of all that for me! Phew.

Mark

[vexorg]

Acornsoft Elite (i.e. for the Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, 6502 Second Processor and BBC Master) doesn't have music of any kind

That's so strange, I would have put money on the original BBC version playing that tune. And what's confusing me is I remember it and never played elite on any other platform, never like the look of it on anything but the BBC.

[MarkMoxon]

Acornsoft Elite (i.e. for the Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, 6502 Second Processor and BBC Master) doesn't have music of any kind

That's so strange, I would have put money on the original BBC version playing that tune. And what's confusing me is I remember it and never played elite on any other platform, never like the look of it on anything but the BBC.

It's interesting, but people have really deeply held memories of features of the original Elite that have simply never existed. Some people swear blind that they have been pulled over and boarded by the police. Others have definitely discovered huge ships out there in deep space. Yet more have flown different types of ship. Others claim to have flown around inside the space stations. And then there are those who claim to have found the planet Arse, which can't even exist in the game as the text system doesn't support those letter combinations (so even David Braben's story about having to change the galaxy seeds because of a planet called "Arse" is slightly dubious, unless that discovery forced a change in the set of two-letter text tokens).

In particular, YouTube comments are an endless smorgasbord of misinformation. It's a really interesting phenomenon!

Mark