Econet LAN party – TNMoC 20th and 21st May 2023

[JimR]

Hi all,
Below is the network map we are hoping to implement:
Econet network map.png
...
If you'd like to carry on allocating, JimR, that would be very helpful thanks!
Regards
Tom

Looks very well thought-out - great job and thanks! Post above updated accordingly.

Looking forward to meeting you all on the weekend!

Jim

[jbredcar]

You may want to look at using Tailscale — it’s free, secure (it uses WireGuard under the hood) and simply just works. Best of all, its direct point to point without having to hit their servers (unless absolutely necessary). It seems able to punch through anything: https://tailscale.com/

A very happy user of it here. Their blog contains lots of detail on how it works too…

Steve

That’s exactly what I’m using. PM me if you’d like to be added to the beta program.

John

[jbredcar]

absolutely. I'm testing the direct setup tomorrow. Punching a hole in the firewall etc. That will be more difficult from the TNMOC end though. I expect the best solution is either someone uses a 4G connection to a PiBridge directly, P2P VPN or via a VPN hub in AWS like you suggested.

Probably best to have a discord running on Saturday also.

I’ll have a Firebrick FB2900 with a 4G dongle. Will bring a Ubuiti WiFi AP as well just in case!

Between us, we will get it all working

[philpem]

absolutely. I'm testing the direct setup tomorrow. Punching a hole in the firewall etc. That will be more difficult from the TNMOC end though. I expect the best solution is either someone uses a 4G connection to a PiBridge directly, P2P VPN or via a VPN hub in AWS like you suggested.

Editing this bit now I've seen the rest of the thread

I'm only there for the Saturday -- but if it would help, I've done setups like this before and could rustle something together or do the VPN side of things. I've got a Digital Ocean account and setting up a Linux VPS to do the Wireguard "server" side of things wouldn't be terribly hard.

Bridges would just need to have Wireguard installed (apt-get install wireguard), and that should link them together. I'd normally using the IANA "class B non-routable private allocation" (172.16.0.0 to 172.31.255.255) as very little seems to use it and it saves on routing issues! 172.27.0.0/12 (for example) - or subnet it down to /16 or /24 (as more specific routes take priority).

Probably best to have a discord running on Saturday also.

The Stardot one is as always up and running:
https://discord.gg/pRy44Wz

It'd be fairly easy to create a new channel for the Econet LAN Party, or even just a general "whatever event is on this weekend" one.

[jbredcar]

I'm only there for the Saturday -- but if it would help, I've done setups like this before and could rustle something together or do the VPN side of things.

We'd need a Linux PC at TNMOC and at whomever is connecting, to provide the network links. If the bridges being used were Pi 4 based, they should have enough grunt to do everything on the bridge.

Normally I'd use Wireguard as it saves a lot of the usual faffing around (certificate authorities and such) which comes with the likes of OpenVPN.

Hi Phil

I’ve set up a Tailscale system, which is basically a mesh Wireguard network with some fancy NAT traversal stuff etc.

Hoping to test Mark’s connection today. If you’d like to add your PiEconet, then just PM me and we can do some testing too!

JB

[philpem]

I'm only there for the Saturday -- but if it would help, I've done setups like this before and could rustle something together or do the VPN side of things.

We'd need a Linux PC at TNMOC and at whomever is connecting, to provide the network links. If the bridges being used were Pi 4 based, they should have enough grunt to do everything on the bridge.

Normally I'd use Wireguard as it saves a lot of the usual faffing around (certificate authorities and such) which comes with the likes of OpenVPN.

Hi Phil

I’ve set up a Tailscale system, which is basically a mesh Wireguard network with some fancy NAT traversal stuff etc.

Hoping to test Mark’s connection today. If you’d like to add your PiEconet, then just PM me and we can do some testing too!

JB

Will do!

[arg]

Below is the network map we are hoping to implement:

Will also want to allocate network numbers - I suspect a fair number of people will want to bridge (I have an Acorn bridge, there's various people with Pi bridges).

Also, those specified net speeds look optimistic: 4us is slightly too fast for BBCs (at least if 2nd processor fitted), 5us is probably still not slow enough for Electrons (though I don't actually have a figure for them). MDFS with final software can do 3us.

[BeebMaster]

I'd like to participate remotely on Saturday, using my Pi Econet Bridge.

Previously I had the ethernet side of my Pi Bridge running, but more recently I only it have open to my local stations. Is it just a case of reverting to that previous configuration file? Do I need to change the network number so there's no clash?

Perhaps I should try to connect to anyone with a permanently running Bridge in advance to make certain I can still get it to work.

[BeebMaster]

Be really good if we could use JGH's Talk to communicate with each other at the weekend:

https://mdfs.net/Apps/Networking/Talker/

[maniacminer]

I guess this is "bring a screwdriver and some tweezers" to set network IDs on arrival for those machines that don't soft-configure. I'm still in a quandary as what to bring, as I don't have any portable monitors and the large number of Beebs isn't happening either. Either way, I'll turn up

[markusher]

I guess this is "bring a screwdriver and some tweezers" to set network IDs on arrival for those machines that don't soft-configure.

Not to mention, handfuls of jumpers.

[markusher]

Be really good if we could use JGH's Talk to communicate with each other at the weekend:

https://mdfs.net/Apps/Networking/Talker/

Great idea. How about the coronation cypher in Mode 7 teletext for a viewdata page?

[Ragster]

I guess this is "bring a screwdriver and some tweezers" to set network IDs on arrival for those machines that don't soft-configure. I'm still in a quandary as what to bring, as I don't have any portable monitors and the large number of Beebs isn't happening either. Either way, I'll turn up

The event page on TNMOC site says: "Admission is free if you bring a machine to show off or if you can help us fix a museum computer (please bring your own tools and soldering kit). "

So, I think they're hoping competent people will bring their tools (I'll be bringing mine, regardless of competence.) Setting jumpers on arrival is expected, I would think.
(Hoping I can do the soft setting on my M128 - I found a config tool, but am a total noob with Econet for now.)

[cr12925]

Be really good if we could use JGH's Talk to communicate with each other at the weekend:

https://mdfs.net/Apps/Networking/Talker/

Great idea. How about the coronation cypher in Mode 7 teletext for a viewdata page?

I am planning to bring a PiNridge which also runs Phoenix (and a serial adapter). Users with the IP over Econet ROM and (eg) the Prestel ROM may also be able to access. (Commstar diesn’t play nice with IP/Econet IIRC). If there is/are a viewdata page(s) you want on it, I can try and upload them…

[BeebMaster]

Be really good if we could use JGH's Talk to communicate with each other at the weekend:

https://mdfs.net/Apps/Networking/Talker/

Great idea. How about the coronation cypher in Mode 7 teletext for a viewdata page? :)

Yes please! I only did it in mode 0.

[Issue7]

Way back in this thread, someone mentioned an Ecolink card, but no PC to put it in. I have a 486 with an ISA slot on standby - shall I bring it in?
Tom

[arg]

Way back in this thread, someone mentioned an Ecolink card, but no PC to put it in. I have a 486 with an ISA slot on standby - shall I bring it in?
Tom

Yes please, unless there's a firm indication of someone else doing so (and even then, I've got 4 of the cards so probably more than one will work).
(NB. mine are SJ Econet cards as distinct from Acorn Ecolink - software considerations are different).

What has it got on it software wise?

The Econet cards can be supported under MS-DOS - which is more historical, but requires finding the right bits and pieces (I've got the Econet bits, but it uses LanManager hooks into DOS which I'm not sure whether they were in all versions of DOS or what.

Alternatively, I can support it under an (old) version of FreeBSD Unix, where I have a box full of ancient install CDs and so could fairly easily do a fresh install if the machine has (or can be switched with) a hard drive that's empty/doesn't mind being erased.

[Issue7]

Hi arg,
It is currently running Windows 95, loaded from a PATA hard disc. Not a problem if you want to swap the disc for another. Alternatively, I have a spare HDD for it you could install DOS on. It has a 3.5" disc and an Intel Ether Express network card with a 10base2 connector which should work with our hub, although Windows claims it is not working. It is floppy only as I don't have a CD drive in it, although I should be able to find one around the museum somewhere.
Tom

[arg]

It is currently running Windows 95, loaded from a PATA hard disc. Not a problem if you want to swap the disc for another. Alternatively, I have a spare HDD for it you could install DOS on. It has a 3.5" disc and an Intel Ether Express network card with a 10base2 connector which should work with our hub, although Windows claims it is not working. It is floppy only as I don't have a CD drive in it, although I should be able to find one around the museum somewhere.

Given those constraints, I think I'll bring a spare ATA harddrive and CDrom and install FreeBSD as my first line of attack. I'm not sure what I've got by way of DOS; I haven't run DOS for a very long time. But if anyone else is around who is more of a DOS person than I am, we could collaborate. Just had a thought: what was inside the PC emulator that came on the R260? I tripped over some kind of DOS stuff while imaging that drive.

[markusher]

The Acorn Ecolink card required DOS 3.2. Wouldn't work with later versions and was very fiddly. Of course, I'm sure the SJ version was much better. Just shout if you need any particular versions.

[Issue7]

[JimR]

It’s aliiiiive! Mwa ha ha haaaa!

Lovely to see. Getting quite excited now…

[paulb]

Just had a thought: what was inside the PC emulator that came on the R260? I tripped over some kind of DOS stuff while imaging that drive.

If it is the multitasking PC emulator for RISC OS, then it may be MS-DOS 3.3. See: "VGA PC Software Runs on Desktop", Acorn User, August 1991.

The earlier PC emulator runs MS-DOS 3.21, apparently. See "Archimedes PC Emulator", Personal Computer World, January 1988.

[Issue7]

Back to MDFS news… The new memory chips arrived but I still get all lights on.

I re-ran my memory test routines and it seems to check out OK. With the MDFS 1.05 ROM in I watched the data and low address lines with the logic analyser. It is apparent that the processor is correctly copying the ROM to RAM and starting to run from the RAM OK. But clearly it only gets so far.

I’m beginning to wonder if it is the address decoding circuit. I put the scope on the nPG LATCH (pin 7 of IC50), hoping to see some pulses as the memory page is changed, but it was always high. I also looked at the enable pins for this chip, which operates various peripherals, fed from pin 10 of IC54 – no pulses either. I’m not sure if it is a fault or the software doesn’t look at these items yet. So investigations continue.

I also noticed I had no C3 capacitor, it appears to have snapped off long ago. It doesn’t seem to prevent the memory working, although it must make it more of an edge-case. I have tried slaving in a second-hand 27pF, but no change. Does anyone have a spare 22pF they can bring along to the event please?
Tom

[arg]

I’m beginning to wonder if it is the address decoding circuit. I put the scope on the nPG LATCH (pin 7 of IC50), hoping to see some pulses as the memory page is changed, but it was always high. I also looked at the enable pins for this chip, which operates various peripherals, fed from pin 10 of IC54 – no pulses either. I’m not sure if it is a fault or the software doesn’t look at these items yet. So investigations continue.

I wouldn't expect it to be touching nPG_LATCH much (apart from once at startup) until you are actually loading the FS code off disc.

I also noticed I had no C3 capacitor, it appears to have snapped off long ago. It doesn’t seem to prevent the memory working, although it must make it more of an edge-case. I have tried slaving in a second-hand 27pF, but no change. Does anyone have a spare 22pF they can bring along to the event please?

That may have been deliberate. I have a feeling that the delay was later considered too large (possibly based on different batches of the chips) and the delay through IC66 is sufficient. But I can't remember accurately.

I'll bring some caps (SMT only, but they will do the job). Also my two other MDFSs with similar faults.

[arg]

Just had a thought: what was inside the PC emulator that came on the R260? I tripped over some kind of DOS stuff while imaging that drive.

If it is the multitasking PC emulator for RISC OS, then it may be MS-DOS 3.3. See: "VGA PC Software Runs on Desktop", Acorn User, August 1991.

The earlier PC emulator runs MS-DOS 3.21, apparently. See "Archimedes PC Emulator", Personal Computer World, January 1988.

Thanks. Not sure how easy it will be to extract...

[arg]

Re monitors - most of my monitors appear to work, so I'll bring at least 3 in excess of what I need myself (they can stay in the car if nobody wants them!).

[cr12925]

Will there be plenty of multiway extension cables?

[BeebMaster]

I think I'm ready for tomorrow...

[Ukwebb]

i wonder if the National Grid has been made aware of tomorrow lol

My three boxes, one of each machine i have with econet, are packed up and ready to be loaded in the car tommorrow morning

just debating packing the CUB's too...

whatever happens, its going to be a brillant day/weekend