Teletext Elite (BBC Micro, BBC Master)

[MarkMoxon]

Came out all right I think:

Looks great! I love the gentle screen curve and soft pixel edges of the Cub, especially in mode 7. Thanks for sharing, that was well worth the effort of the setup!

Mark

[B3_B3_B3]

[MarkMoxon]

I'm wondering if you've ever thought about looking at the NES version of Elite.

The reason I'm asking is because (AFAIK) the NES doesn't have anything like a bitmapped framebuffer -- instead, the display has to be built up by referencing a finite set of pre-defined tiles (perfect for 2D platformers -- less so for full 3D). Ian Bell remarked that the NES version of the game was actually his favourite, because of the shenanigans they'd had to negotiate in order to get the game to work on non-bitmapped hardware.

It strikes me that there might be some commonality between what B&B needed to do on the NES, and what you've needed to do here.

I never quite got this post out of my head.

As a result, I’m now working my way through the NES version of Elite, documenting it all and linking it with the BBC Micro code. There is a lot of overlap, not surprisingly, and even the solutions that Ian Bell came up with to enable vector graphics on a tile-based console are intriguingly BBC-esque. (Palette switching? One-bit-per-pixel plotting in blocks of 8x8 pixels? Sounds familiar!)

It is very early days (128K is a big game binary to analyse!) but you can follow my progress on GitHub, where there is already a fully buildable version of NES Elite available.

https://github.com/markmoxon/nes-elite-beebasm

Mark

[bob147]

Now that's an interesting target for a port, quite the departure from the usual set of home computers! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. The big question of course is how do you categorise it when your website is called BBC Elite

[MarkMoxon]

Now that's an interesting target for a port, quite the departure from the usual set of home computers! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. The big question of course is how do you categorise it when your website is called BBC Elite

Ha, that's true! I'm also planning to document the Apple and C64 versions of Elite, time permitting, so the bbcelite.com domain name is going to be doing some heavy lifting!

Then again, it already houses Aviator and Revs, so the "elite" part is already a bit of a misnomer...

Mark

[B3_B3_B3]

Now that's an interesting target for a port, quite the departure from the usual set of home computers! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. The big question of course is how do you categorise it when your website is called BBC Elite

Ha, that's true! I'm also planning to document the Apple and C64 versions of Elite, time permitting, so the bbcelite.com domain name is going to be doing some heavy lifting!

Then again, it already houses Aviator and Revs, so the "elite" part is already a bit of a misnomer...

Mark

You could take elite as its normal meaning of top level, so best dissassemblies of best bbc games (and their ports)....

[MarkMoxon]

You could take elite as its normal meaning of top level, so best dissassemblies of best bbc games (and their ports)....

I like it! And that could include software for the Archimedes A305/A310/A3000 too, as they were all BBC machines. Very handy, as I’d love to pull Lander apart at some point…

Mark

[trixster]

@MarkMoxon I’d be very interested to read your analysis of the MSX edition of Elite. I’ve often wondered why they chose the dreadful fish-eye camera view which makes the game pretty much unplayable!

[MarkMoxon]

@MarkMoxon I’d be very interested to read your analysis of the MSX edition of Elite. I’ve often wondered why they chose the dreadful fish-eye camera view which makes the game pretty much unplayable!

I don't think I'll be able to answer that, I'm afraid - the MSX version is based on the Z80 version for the ZX Spectrum, and Z80 isn't my thing (I'm more 6502 and ARM). It's also a complete rewrite rather than a port of the original 6502 version, so it doesn't reuse any Bell/Braben code, which makes it an even bigger task to analyse (the NES is 6502-based, hence the large code-crossover with the BBC version). I suspect I'll be sticking with 6502 and ARM analysis - sorry!

I'm not sure how much the Z80 version has been analysed by the Spectrum community? Surely someone has taken a look...

Mark

[Diminished]

I never quite got this post out of my head. :D

Rather evil of me, perhaps.

I had a quick look at the github. I was immediately struck by how luxurious it is having ROM.

I wonder how they built the NES version?

[cjpinder]

I wonder how they built the NES version?

It was done using a system called PDS (Programmers Development System) which was an editor, assembler and debugger running on a PC under DOS. The PDS PC was attached via a cable and special interface to the target system. This allowed the code to be assembled and sent straight to the target system to run and debug.

Thanks,
Christian.

[cjpinder]

I'm not sure how much the Z80 version has been analysed by the Spectrum community? Surely someone has taken a look...

Strangely, although the MSX and Spectrum are both Z80 machines the ports were done independently and don't share any code. Rob Nicholson did the MSX port (then the Amiga and ST), Torus did the Spectrum and CPC.

Thanks,
Christian.

[MarkMoxon]

I wonder how they built the NES version?

It was done using a system called PDS (Programmers Development System) which was an editor, assembler and debugger running on a PC under DOS. The PDS PC was attached via a cable and special interface to the target system. This allowed the code to be assembled and sent straight to the target system to run and debug.

Ah! I wondered how they did it. Thanks Christian, I figured they wouldn't be using BBCs any more, so that's really good to know.

I'm not sure how much the Z80 version has been analysed by the Spectrum community? Surely someone has taken a look...

Strangely, although the MSX and Spectrum are both Z80 machines the ports were done independently and don't share any code. Rob Nicholson did the MSX port (then the Amiga and ST), Torus did the Spectrum and CPC.

Wow, I didn't realise they rebuilt Elite for the Z80 from scratch... twice! That's so different to the 6502 versions, where it's clear from the code that each version was built on top of the previous ones, from the BBC Micro/Electron versions through to the 6502SP, C64, Apple II, BBC Master and NES versions. I'm finding that the 1991 NES version contains lots of original BBC Micro code, with considerable chunks of it completely unchanged from the BBC versions (particularly in the maths routines).

In that sense NES Elite really is the original Acornsoft Elite, just updated for the console technology. I rather like that.

Mark

[paulb]

In that sense NES Elite really is the original Acornsoft Elite, just updated for the console technology. I rather like that.

Wasn't it said that the NES version was Ian Bell's favourite port? (Hope you didn't mention that in prior messages that I didn't bother reviewing!)

[MarkMoxon]

In that sense NES Elite really is the original Acornsoft Elite, just updated for the console technology. I rather like that.

Wasn't it said that the NES version was Ian Bell's favourite port? (Hope you didn't mention that in prior messages that I didn't bother reviewing!)

Yes, indeed. The full quote is this:

My greatest published achievements technically would have to be fitting BBC Cassette "Elite" into 32K of RAM including the screen, and later the Nintendo Entertainment System conversion of "Elite" that used a character mapped display and a single NES controller. The NES is my favourite published conversion and was not thought technically feasible until we'd done it.

Note that the NES version is his "favourite published conversion" of Elite, which I like to think means that he still rates the original BBC Micro version as the best. Here's the full interview:

http://elitehomepage.org/archive/b5081501.htm

In the same interview he says that his favourite game ever is Chuckie Egg on the BBC. Can't argue with that!

Mark

[colinhoad]

With apologies for it being *so* late, I made a short video showcasing Mark's excellent Teletext Elite here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jswnryd_3tE

[brianmartin_2001]

Another great video Colin , thumbs up here

[MarkMoxon]

With apologies for it being *so* late, I made a short video showcasing Mark's excellent Teletext Elite here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jswnryd_3tE

Great video Colin (though I may be biased) - you hit the nail on the head when talking about what makes Teletext Elite such fun! Thank you.

Good to see the easter eggs get some love, too. That Galfax header is a real favourite of mine. Even the page numbers spin at a semi-random slow/fast speed that's modelled on videos of the real thing. You can't be too realistic when modelling such pointless nostalgia...

Mark

[colinhoad]

Another great video Colin , thumbs up here

Thank you, Brian!

Great video Colin (though I may be biased) - you hit the nail on the head when talking about what makes Teletext Elite such fun! Thank you.

Good to see the easter eggs get some love, too. That Galfax header is a real favourite of mine. Even the page numbers spin at a semi-random slow/fast speed that's modelled on videos of the real thing. You can't be too realistic when modelling such pointless nostalgia...

...and thank you, Mark, that's lovely feedback! I was just pleased to be able to share my enjoyment of Teletext Elite with a wider audience, it's such a great accomplishment. I did actually wonder about the speed of the page number spin, in my distant memories of 'surfing Ceefax' I do recall it being a tad erratic