LAND - A Multi-User Dungeon (well almost)

[Canalboy]

Hi Canalboy, just viewed your map. You're doing brilliantly, I guess you're concentrating on the Wizards' tower maybe followed by the Viking island? I've also spotted that you don't appear to have opened the fnsr in the dhneel bssvpr. Your score should be pretty good now.

When in the middle of the cnffntrjnl and you ubc fbhgu to avoid the neebj the description includes:

"...an arrow shoots out of the wall and flies passed (sic) the spot....

Canalboy

I realised that I'd destroyed the floor of the Oynpx Gbjre in the wrong sequence so I have gone back to an earlier game to replay that section. A clever puzzle. Compared to a Jonathan Partington / Peter Kilworth et al Phoenix game from a slightly earlier era this is kind to the player and doesn't actively hate him or her; congratulations for resurrecting such a great piece of IF / MUD history.

Canalboy

[fuzzel]

Canalboy wrote:
I realised that I'd destroyed the floor of the Oynpx Gbjre in the wrong sequence so I have gone back to an earlier game to replay that section. A clever puzzle. Compared to a Jonathan Partington / Peter Kilworth et al Phoenix game from a slightly earlier era this is kind to the player and doesn't actively hate him or her; congratulations for resurrecting such a great piece of IF / MUD history.

I wasn't aware, actually, that I'd referenced JP and PK's puzzle from bitd. Could you give me more details on this please? I did play all the old Acornsoft classics - Philosopher's Quest, Castle of Riddles, Countdoom to Doom, so it could well be in one of them. I do recall ensuring there were only a few locations on the other side of the pbyyncfvat sybbe so that you'd very quickly realise that unless you could solve the next puzzle past it straightaway you'd be better off leaving it until later.

The sequence in the cnffntrjnlf outside the Oynpx Gbjre is reminiscent of the Danger Rooms in Philosopher's Quest if you are familiar with that game.

I definitely recall adding this in homage to an Acornsoft classic but I believed it was actually Castle of Riddles and not PQ but I've just checked and you're right and I'm wrong. Funny how the memory plays tricks.
ADDED: I've just looked up Philosopher's Quest on CASA and am intrigued about the original mainframe version called Brand X which would appear to be a combination of Castle of Riddles and Philosopher's Quest. Presumably the authors decided, due to the memory limitations of the beeb, to split the game in two, creating two games and generating twice the revenue! It's a huge temptation for me to start a new project and recreate Brand X for an enhanced BBC. I've seen Richard Bos's solution, is it possible to play the game on an emulator?

[Canalboy]

Canalboy wrote:
I realised that I'd destroyed the floor of the Oynpx Gbjre in the wrong sequence so I have gone back to an earlier game to replay that section. A clever puzzle. Compared to a Jonathan Partington / Peter Kilworth et al Phoenix game from a slightly earlier era this is kind to the player and doesn't actively hate him or her; congratulations for resurrecting such a great piece of IF / MUD history.

I wasn't aware, actually, that I'd referenced JP and PK's puzzle from bitd. Could you give me more details on this please? I did play all the old Acornsoft classics - Philosopher's Quest, Castle of Riddles, Countdoom to Doom, so it could well be in one of them. I do recall ensuring there were only a few locations on the other side of the pbyyncfvat sybbe so that you'd very quickly realise that unless you could solve the next puzzle past it straightaway you'd be better off leaving it until later.

The sequence in the cnffntrjnlf outside the Oynpx Gbjre is reminiscent of the Danger Rooms in Philosopher's Quest if you are familiar with that game.

I definitely recall adding this in homage to an Acornsoft classic but I believed it was actually Castle of Riddles and not PQ but I've just checked and you're right and I'm wrong. Funny how the memory plays tricks.
ADDED: I've just looked up Philosopher's Quest on CASA and am intrigued about the original mainframe version called Brand X which would appear to be a combination of Castle of Riddles and Philosopher's Quest. Presumably the authors decided, due to the memory limitations of the beeb, to split the game in two, creating two games and generating twice the revenue! It's a huge temptation for me to start a new project and recreate Brand X for an enhanced BBC. I've seen Richard Bos's solution, is it possible to play the game on an emulator?

I am pretty sure it is possible, using frotz at least.
https://ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiv ... zcode.html

The above link is a z5 file of the original mainframe game so you can play it using Winfrotz
Winfrotz is downloadable from David KInder's page here

http://www.davidkinder.co.uk/frotz.html

[8bitAG]

I definitely recall adding this in homage to an Acornsoft classic but I believed it was actually Castle of Riddles and not PQ but I've just checked and you're right and I'm wrong. Funny how the memory plays tricks.
ADDED: I've just looked up Philosopher's Quest on CASA and am intrigued about the original mainframe version called Brand X which would appear to be a combination of Castle of Riddles and Philosopher's Quest. Presumably the authors decided, due to the memory limitations of the beeb, to split the game in two, creating two games and generating twice the revenue! It's a huge temptation for me to start a new project and recreate Brand X for an enhanced BBC. I've seen Richard Bos's solution, is it possible to play the game on an emulator?

The claim that Castle of Riddles is based on the material that wasn't used when Brand X was ported as Philosopher's Quest is disputed; as references in the CASA entry.

I do think the CASA entry needs a bit of a tidy up. If the original cut-down release of Philosopher's Quest is *that* different from Brand X and any later release of Philosopher's Quest then I personally think the Acornsoft release is worthy of a separate entry in the database.

[Canalboy]

Canalboy wrote:
I realised that I'd destroyed the floor of the Oynpx Gbjre in the wrong sequence so I have gone back to an earlier game to replay that section. A clever puzzle. Compared to a Jonathan Partington / Peter Kilworth et al Phoenix game from a slightly earlier era this is kind to the player and doesn't actively hate him or her; congratulations for resurrecting such a great piece of IF / MUD history.

I wasn't aware, actually, that I'd referenced JP and PK's puzzle from bitd. Could you give me more details on this please? I did play all the old Acornsoft classics - Philosopher's Quest, Castle of Riddles, Countdoom to Doom, so it could well be in one of them. I do recall ensuring there were only a few locations on the other side of the pbyyncfvat sybbe so that you'd very quickly realise that unless you could solve the next puzzle past it straightaway you'd be better off leaving it until later.

The sequence in the cnffntrjnlf outside the Oynpx Gbjre is reminiscent of the Danger Rooms in Philosopher's Quest if you are familiar with that game.

I definitely recall adding this in homage to an Acornsoft classic but I believed it was actually Castle of Riddles and not PQ but I've just checked and you're right and I'm wrong. Funny how the memory plays tricks.
ADDED: I've just looked up Philosopher's Quest on CASA and am intrigued about the original mainframe version called Brand X which would appear to be a combination of Castle of Riddles and Philosopher's Quest. Presumably the authors decided, due to the memory limitations of the beeb, to split the game in two, creating two games and generating twice the revenue! It's a huge temptation for me to start a new project and recreate Brand X for an enhanced BBC. I've seen Richard Bos's solution, is it possible to play the game on an emulator?

I am pretty sure it is possible, using frotz at least.
https://ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiv ... zcode.html

The above link is a z5 file of the original mainframe game so you can play it using Winfrotz
Winfrotz is downloadable from David KInder's page here

http://www.davidkinder.co.uk/frotz.html

One thing that strike me when playing these old mainfame games again is how difficult they were. I am pleased the your games have no limited lamp timer, thirst / hunger daemons or massive one way mazes. The maze in Warp was horrendous to map and it is so easy to miss an important location or two. In fact Warp has a section at the beginning where you have to visit n onax naq jnvg bhgfvqr n fnsr sbe vg gb bcra ng 10NZ. If you miss the clue on the first day it never opens again and you have made the game unwinnable right at the start without even realising it.

[Canalboy]

Thanks Lurkio!

[lurkio]

That should be mainframe!

You can edit your posts to correct spelling errors if you want. Click the little pencil icon at the top of the post in question.

Also, you might want to avoid quoting entire posts when you reply to them! Just quote the relevant bit of text and delete the rest. It'll make the thread of the conversation easier for readers of the forum to follow.

Just a suggestion -- not a demand! I have no authority here.

[Canalboy]

Well I have made it to 4495 points but, rather like Army Group Centre before the gates of Moscow in 1941, I have run out of fighting ability. My room is somewhat warmer though. Sadly the 5 points needed to become a Wizard shall remain as elusive as the spires of the Kremlin. Tenuous analogy ends.

Canalboy

[dhoggan]

This might be a daft question, but is there a way to control which SWRAM banks are used? I bought a ROM/RAM board for this (well, I wanted one anyway, but this is what pushed me to commit) - it's one of Steve Picton's and very nice too. But, it interleaves the ROM and RAM configuration, so slots 0 + 1, 4 + 5, 8 + 9 and 12 + 13 are RAM, the others ROM, which I've populated. Every time I run this it overwrites the contents of RAM (as expected) and fails to 'find' the slots designated as ROM. So a way to get it to load in specific slots would be ace, but couldn't see a way to do this.

Is it possible?

Works fine in Beebem, as you'd expect.

Thanks,

Dave

[lurkio]

is there a way to control which SWRAM banks are used? I bought a ROM/RAM board for this ... it's one of Steve Picton's ... But, it interleaves the ROM and RAM configuration, so slots 0 + 1, 4 + 5, 8 + 9 and 12 + 13 are RAM, the others ROM, which I've populated. Every time I run this it overwrites the contents of RAM (as expected) and fails to 'find' the slots designated as ROM. So a way to get it to load in specific slots would be ace, but couldn't see a way to do this. Is it possible?

I helped fuzzel test LAND, and I too have a Picton/IFEL ROM/RAM board (an older design) with the same or similar bank-allocation, and I seem to recall that at one point fuzzel did a separate build of an early version of LAND that was designed to work on my ROM/RAM board -- but I don't think I ever tested it, I'm ashamed to say!

But fuzzel may well read your post and do a similar build for the final version of the game so you'll be able to run it on your Beeb..?

Btw, fuzzel, if you are reading this, have you seen SteveF's SWRAM auto-detection feature in his Beeb port of Ozmoo?:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19975&hilit=SWRAM&start=120#p283596

[dhoggan]

Hi Lurkio,

At least I know I wasn't missing anything obvious. Hopefully it isn't too much work for fuzzel to build - playing on Beebem and it looks great, but Beemem, well it an't no Beeb

[fuzzel]

Hi, I’m down in sunny Cambridge at the moment but will reconfigure a version of Land for you in a few days time when I’m back home. Can’t disappoint a player can I?

[dhoggan]

Hi fuzzel,

Oh that's super - and very appreciated. I doubt I'll come close to Canalboy's score but I'm willing to give it a go!

Thanks,

Dave

[Canalboy]

Hi fuzzel,

Oh that's super - and very appreciated. I doubt I'll come close to Canalboy's score but I'm willing to give it a go!

Thanks,

Dave

I am quite happy to offer cryptic hints Dave. I have put the map up on CASA as well should you wish to peruse it but it of course contains spoilers.

Canalboy

[fuzzel]

I'm back home so here's the new file utilising SWR banks 0,1,4,5,8,9 and C. It's been a while so I had to get my head around how to change them again. This time I've written out a little list of procedures, I had to change references to the SWR banks in the main program, the SWR files loader program, the objects locations file and also the INIT file which is basically a save game file for a new game. I forgot this last one when I did a quick test. Fortunately I visited a location in the fourth of four SWR banks and an object wasn't there so I knew I'd missed something. In all it's taken me about half an hour haphazardly, next time I reckon with my crib-sheet it'll take about 10 minutes so I'm fully prepared if someone else has a different configuration they'd like me to set up. I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on with the game on a real beeb btw, as far as I know this will be the first time it's been played on one so your feedback will be much appreciated. I keep meaning to get mine fixed but other priorities and all that...

Land Final Version Alt SWR Config.ssd

(182.5 KiB) Downloaded 68 times

[dhoggan]

Hi fuzzel

Just downloaded and got it on the Gotek. It didn't load at first but then I remembered the RPi co-pro was on so disabled that and it works a treat. Many thanks for doing this. I won't have a proper chance to make a start until Sunday, but having a bit of a look around at the moment.

Dave

[fuzzel]

Hi Dave, I'm glad to hear it's working. Good luck!

[lurkio]

Zarf returns..?:

https://ahopeful.wordpress.com/2020/06/ ... ment-14827

[leenew]

Cute

Lee

[fuzzel]

Nice to see Richard's posted a comment on your "LAND (1989) — a lost MUD recreated" page. I wonder if he'll be tempted to have a go of the game for old time's sake? I'm not sure what he means by "I loved that book" though...

[lurkio]

Nice to see Richard's posted a comment on your "LAND (1989) — a lost MUD recreated" page. I wonder if he'll be tempted to have a go of the game for old time's sake? I'm not sure what he means by "I loved that book" though...

He's referring to the novel (Apple Crunch) from which he took the nickname Zarf.

Mabe you could reply to his comment on that page and say hello?

[fuzzel]

Hmm, not an easy book to get hold of, that one. I may very well say hello later btw!

[lurkio]

Hmm, not an easy book to get hold of, that one.

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL4778163 ... unch00hube

[dhoggan]

Hi,

So I've mapped around 100 locations - lost count at 80 but added things like the bhg ng frn area since then. Aside from the typos picked up by Lurkio and CanalBoy I've not seen anything obvious but an oddity where in the ivpnentr rnegul cnffntr area if I fall off the yrqtr nebhaq jryy the I get the location description of the jryy obggbz before dying. I assume this is more of the existential 'moment of death' debate.

I do have a few questions if some kind soul could help save my sanity!

(1) Is the qrfreg region only three locations?

(2) In the ivpnentr rnegul cnffntr area if I get past the inzcver then the passage just seems to end. It really feels like there should be more than the remnants of the sbhaqngvba jnyy.

(3) I haven't tried to go south of the river yes although I think I've found the way to do it (if not the way to actually make it happen!) I am right in thinking that solving puzzles on one side of the river may require an amount to to-ing and fro-ing between the two sides?

Loving the sheer size of the game and the fact that it's not a commonly documented one as it avoids me sneakily looking up hints on the interweb!

Dave

[fuzzel]

Hi,

So I've mapped around 100 locations - lost count at 80 but added things like the bhg ng frn area since then. Aside from the typos picked up by Lurkio and CanalBoy I've not seen anything obvious but an oddity where in the ivpnentr rnegul cnffntr area if I fall off the yrqtr nebhaq jryy the I get the location description of the jryy obggbz before dying. I assume this is more of the existential 'moment of death' debate.

I do have a few questions if some kind soul could help save my sanity!

(1) Is the qrfreg region only three locations?

(2) In the ivpnentr rnegul cnffntr area if I get past the inzcver then the passage just seems to end. It really feels like there should be more than the remnants of the sbhaqngvba jnyy.

(3) I haven't tried to go south of the river yes although I think I've found the way to do it (if not the way to actually make it happen!) I am right in thinking that solving puzzles on one side of the river may require an amount to to-ing and fro-ing between the two sides?

Loving the sheer size of the game and the fact that it's not a commonly documented one as it avoids me sneakily looking up hints on the interweb!

Dave

Hi Dave, I'm glad you're enjoying the game, answers as follows (3 is from memory, I'd really need to look at my map):

1. lrf-guvf-jnf-boivbhfyl-abg-qrirybcrq-shegure-ol-bar-bs-zl-pb:qrirybcref

2. gur-cnffntr-raqf-ohg-gurer-znl-or-fbzrguvat-gurer-va-gung-cneg-bs-gur-tnzr

3. pbeerpg

[dhoggan]

I probably can't see the wood for the trees but I'm at the fbhgu raq bs cnffntrjnl standing in front of the veba tngr. Problem is, I've been standing there since Friday evening! I've tried everything I can think of to no avail.

To top it all off, I thought "no problem. I'll just go back to one of my previous saved games and continue exploring the abegu fvqr bs pnalba" only to realise that when I've been typing "save LANDA", save LANDB" etc... It's been ignoring the filename and always overwriting my previous saved game! That was a sinking moment!

Anyway, could someone provide any sort of clue as to how to deal with the veba tngr without necessarily telling me the solution outright? Id's be ever so grateful!

[lurkio]

To top it all off, I thought "no problem. I'll just go back to one of my previous saved games and continue exploring the abegu fvqr bs pnalba" only to realise that when I've been typing "save LANDA", save LANDB" etc... It's been ignoring the filename and always overwriting my previous saved game! That was a sinking moment!

If you're playing in an emulator, then rather than using the in-game SAVE command, you can instead use the emulator's Save State feature to save multiple savegames (or "saved states").

Anyway, could someone provide any sort of clue as to how to deal with the veba tngr without necessarily telling me the solution outright? Id's be ever so grateful!

Clues in order of increasing spoileriness:

<rot13>
Gur ebbz-qrfpevcgvba ernqf, "...N fvta cynprq jvguva vg cerfragf gur pelcgvp zrffntr 'FPNEL'. Bqqyl, rira gubhtu guvf pyhr frrzf bofpher lbh srry fher lbh pna pbzrhc jvgu gur nafjre fbba." Vg urycf vs lbh xabj lbhe pelcgvp pebffjbeq grezvabybtl urer.

Gur xrl jbeq vf "Bqqyl".

Gnxr gur "Bqq" yrggref bs FPNEL.

Gur bqq yrggref bs FPNEL ner gur svefg, guveq naq svsgu yrggref: FNL

Jenccvat nebhaq gb gur ortvaavat ntnva, jr unir gur erznvavat yrggref: PE

Gur nafjre vf gb fnl "PE".

Glcr va gur sbyybjvat gjb yrggref ba gurve bja, jvgubhg nal fcnprf: PE

</rot13>

[dhoggan]

Thanks Lurkio.

I managed to get it after the first hint and a Google of cryptic crosswords - a world I knew nothing of. I got rat-holed by the "bqqyl", "rira", "bofpher" and "pbzrhc" as they could all have been indicator words. Then I settled on just using bqqyl as a start and got sidetracked into "FNL EP", "FNL NERFRN"etc. Completely ignoring that fact it didn't like the word "FNL". Eventually it clicked I just took it literally.

I'm actually playing on a real Beeb so a bit stuck by the sounds of it. Luckily it's a Gotek so I'll just spin up ten saved game disks.

Dave

[dhoggan]

I'm still plodding away at this, now having started from scratch and using Beebem's 'save state' feature which has been very handy in trying to get into the quarry. I have a question I'm hoping someone can help with...

I'm in the dhneel bssvpr trying to open the fnsr but can't work it out. looking at the list of game commands there's also not clue but I was wondering if the clue is gur fvta: nyy bowrpgf orybat gb zr?

Also, stuck trying to get into the zvar funsg oybpxrq ol obhyqref but thought I;d try the safe first as I've found nothing else so far that can help.

[fuzzel]

I'm still plodding away at this, now having started from scratch and using Beebem's 'save state' feature which has been very handy in trying to get into the quarry. I have a question I'm hoping someone can help with...

I'm in the dhneel bssvpr trying to open the fnsr but can't work it out. looking at the list of game commands there's also not clue but I was wondering if the clue is gur fvta: nyy bowrpgf orybat gb zr?

Also, stuck trying to get into the zvar funsg oybpxrq ol obhyqref but thought I;d try the safe first as I've found nothing else so far that can help.

Will help out tomorrow when I have access to my pc.
Edit - you’re correct about the fnsr clue
And your final idea is also correct