A new MENU system for MMC/Gotek

[tricky]

All of my games and most of my ports support joysticks
Scramble really wants two buttons but I might have added both on one button until you use the other - I was going to.
Yep, dodgy joysticks and floppy flippers! really made me mad in the 80s!

[Sazhen86]

Looks like I have another project to add to the list

Can I ask how you support two fire buttons? Is it using the buttons from both sticks that can be attached to the Beeb?

[tricky]

Yes, most joysticks put one button on each but some put both buttons on each!
I also do a bit of simple sneaky electronics in my sega megadrive adapters to support four fire buttons

[Sazhen86]

Yes, most joysticks put one button on each but some put both buttons on each!
I also do a bit of simple sneaky electronics in my sega megadrive adapters to support four fire buttons

Does that involve using the analogue channels for the other josytick to get the extra fire buttons or isn't that sneaky enough?

[tricky]

Not quite sneaky enough
I use the light pen input as an output to switch two sets of fire buttons through the existing two digital inputs.
It turns out the Voltmace also used this trick back in the 80s!
One of the benefits of using the SEGA megadrive controllers is that they already have chips in them to do this switching (74ls157 iirc). You do have to convert the digital input back to analogue to send the directions back through the analogue inputs though and time you fire button reading as the switch also switches the directions out for other buttons which would mess up the analogue conversion if you did it at the wrong time.
My circuits are shown in the thread about my various adapters, inc the PS2 mouse/trackball one

PS Using analogue inputs for fire buttons probably wouldn't work very well for short presses, but I haven't tried it.

[Sazhen86]

I use the light pen input as an output to switch two sets of fire buttons through the existing two digital inputs.

Sneaky indeed!

It turns out the Voltmace also used this trick back in the 80s!

There's nothing new it seems. Was there much support in games for the Voltmace scheme back in the day?

PS Using analogue inputs for fire buttons probably wouldn't work very well for short presses, but I haven't tried it.

I did wonder about the ADC conversion time and whether it would delay the fire button action too much, but figured maybe that's where the sneaky part came in.

[tricky]

...Was there much support in games for the Voltmace scheme back in the day?

I don't know of any for the keypad part via the user port, but the joystick part worked as two analogue joystick ports.

...I did wonder about the ADC conversion time and whether it would delay the fire button action too much, but figured maybe that's where the sneaky part came in.

The conversion in 8bit mode takes 4ms, so the response time would be fine, it is just that if you are swapping its inputs while it is calculating, you might get some converted from one input and some from the other.

I get the analogue result, swap the button sets on the SEGA pad, read the alternate fire buttons and then swap back before starting the next analogue conversion. This is because on the SEGA pads with many buttons, three of the direction buttons also swap.

[Sazhen86]

The conversion in 8bit mode takes 4ms, so the response time would be fine, it is just that if you are swapping its inputs while it is calculating, you might get some converted from one input and some from the other.

I initially thought that it would be possible to extend the input from the fire button for the length of a conversion, but that would require coordination which probably isn't possible or at least not easy. Using the light pen control makes a lot more sense.

I get the analogue result, swap the button sets on the SEGA pad, read the alternate fire buttons and then swap back before starting the next analogue conversion. This is because on the SEGA pads with many buttons, three of the direction buttons also swap.

The ingenuity of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me.

[tricky]

Of you just want two more buttons, it would be fine, it was only on the sega pad where swapping the buttons also swaps the directions internally. Even so, it could read one set of data from 8ms X+y and then swap and read the other set of inputs for another 8ms. There is an interrupt to make it efficient.

[tricky]

If anyone is having problems with newer firmware not working with my menu please post the firmware visions that don't work.
I guess knowing the ones that do would be good too.

[tricky]

I've just updated one of my first gen goteks to the latest 3.39 bootloader and firmware and it works fine, so either the problem has been fixed or it is only a problem on the newer hardware!

If anyone does have HW that it doesn't work on, I would love an "FFLOG.TXT" file produced by updating to \alt\logfill\...upd firmware, getting the issue and swapping disc image to flush the log to file.

[AndyGarton]

I did have problems a couple of years ago (higher up this thread), but I've just tried the GOTEK.ZIP from the first post on my Master 128 (DataCentre equipped, 1770 DFS), and it works fine. Unfortunately I can't remember if I tried it on this machine previously, but I'd guess I probably did as it's my main Master. If I did, then something in the menu itself has fixed it since, because I haven't changed my Gotek (which is still on 3.30 FlashFloppy) or Master itself.

Great work on the menu and thanks again!

[AndyGarton]

I've just updated one of my first gen goteks to the latest 3.39 bootloader and firmware and it works fine, so either the problem has been fixed or it is only a problem on the newer hardware!

If anyone does have HW that it doesn't work on, I would love an "FFLOG.TXT" file produced by updating to \alt\logfill\...upd firmware, getting the issue and swapping disc image to flush the log to file.

I've managed to reproduce the hang I was getting on my Model B - could you expand upon the instructions on how to get a log file please?

[AndyGarton]

Figured it out - here is the generated log file (attached). What I did here was select image 0, shift-break to load the menu, select Tricky Frogger (at which point it freezes, displaying just the usual "GOTEK din" and "EXEX $.--00A--" lines on the Beeb, stuck at "Direct Access T:254.0" on the Gotek display), then navigated to image 1 to flush the log file. Hope it helps, although it doesn't look massively useful to me!

(I also upgraded to the latest 3.39 before trying this, from the 3.30 I mentioned yesterday. Both behave the same as far as this problem is concerned.)

[AndyGarton]

This Beeb is running the 1770 DFS btw (same as my Master which works, with the same Gotek and USB drive), if that's relevant.

[AndyGarton]

Confirming also that it fails in the same way on my other Model B (which is basically stock, just with another 1770 disk interface).

[AndyGarton]

Funnily enough my Master 128 will fail in the same way in "Model B mode" (i.e. using the RetroClinic MultiOS wotsit).

[tricky]

Thanks for the log and the further investigation.

Is this one of the newer, smaller goteks?

Does the multi os swap in any different ROMs?

We've seen disc doctor I think so it from working.

It looks from that log like it got to disc 2 and then 1,0,1...

[AndyGarton]

The Gotek is about two years old and purchased from Mark at RetroClinic.

[tricky]

I got a bit distracted but still related to my GOTEK menu and MMFS/SmartSPI/MMFS2 versions

Here is a DropBox download link for an update to the Windows menu builder.
The .zip download is 100M and the extracted version over 850M as it contains a copy of the discs and screenshots from the bbcmicro.co.uk archive but you should be able to pick and choose in DropBox without an account.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3r0jdnpq97g5 ... r.zip?dl=0
There is probably stuff that isn't needed as well as missing bits as I haven't gone over the 4000 discs to check!

The update to the builder adds to new command line options:
-select which will open a window displaying all the categories of info and discs and allow games to be added or removed individually or by sub-category.
The GUI has a "Save Selection" button which should save a file called "history.sel" which can later be played back to recreate the current selection even if games have been added or removed from the .csv or whichever method is being used to specify them.
Remember to press "Export: <999> discs" to create the actual menu files.
-replay <Save Selection file> will play back the commands used to make the selection up to the point where it was saved.

run.bat has been tweaked to clean up the previous run before starting the menu creation tool.

I have only written this today and as I was out for most of it, haven't given it much testing so it may set your PC on fire - who knows!

PS Did I mention I have included the screen shots!

PPS If I am breaking any rules or missing any required acknowledgements please let me know or take the posts down.

PPPS run.bat expects 7zip to be available, but zipping isn't necessary!

[tricky]

The idea with the "Save Selection" -replay history.sel is that it is a sort of script that can be replayed after new games are added and it should give you the same sort of things that you had before.
Here is a history.sel from me having a first go at making a selection for taking to shows:

Code: Select all

*All
<Adventure
<Board Game
<Board Game (Backgammon)
<Board Game (Chess)
<Board Game (Chinese Chequers)
<Board Game (Cluedo)
<Board Game (Draughts)
<Board Game (Go)
<Board Game (Gomoku)
<Board Game (Ludo)
<Board Game (Monopoly)
<Board Game (Reversi)
<Board Game (Scrabble)
<Board Game (Snakes And Ladders)
<Board Game (Solitaire)
<Board Games (Draughts)
<Board Games And Card Games
<Business Management
<Button basher
<Card Game
<Card Game (Blackjack)
<Card Game (Bridge)
<Card Game (Poker)
<Card Game (Snap)
<Card Games
<Crossword
<Diary
<Dice
<Dice Game
<Dominoes
<Educational
<Flight Simulator
<Football Season Record Keeper
<Gambling
<Game Hints
<Graphic Adventure
<Horse Racing Season Record Keeper
<Jigsaw
<Memory Game
<Pairs
<Puzzle
<Puzzle Solver
<Puzzler
<Quiz
<Quiz (Flags)
<Quiz (Sports)
<Quiz Database Disc
<Reaction Tester
<RPG
<Simulation
<Simulation (Agriculture)
<Simulation (Building Site)
<Simulation (Business)
<Simulation (Exploration)
<Simulation (Fishing)
<Simulation (Flight)
<Simulation (Fruit Machine)
<Simulation (Life)
<Simulation (Night Sky)
<Simulation (Planetarium)
<Simulation (Politics)
<Simulation (Railways)
<Simulation (Space Flight)
<Simulation (Submarines)
<Simulation (Team Management)
<Sport (Cricket)
>Sport (Cricket)
<Word Games
<Word Games (Mastermind)
<Word Search
>Word Search
=Secondary
<Adventure
<Business Management
<Button basher
<Cluedo
<Crossword
<Educational
<Flight Simulator
<Gardening
<Geography Quiz
<Glider Simulation
<Grand Master Quiz
<Memory Test
<Simulation (Business)
<Simulation (Politics)
<Simulation (Submarines)
<Snakes And Ladders
<Snap
<Stocks And Shares
<Tower Of Hanoi

* can be All, None or Toggle where All and None will clear the previous history.
= selects a new category
< adds the files from the current category
> deletes the files from the current category (these are from when the files were on the left!)
+ adds an individual disc by specifying its .ssd (this is just a unique identifier)
- removes an individual disc

Like most of my stuff, I'm not planning on supporting this but maybe it will be useful to someone other than me

You can specify the same files as before but additionally a .csv in the format of bbcmicro.co.uk.csv which is recognised by the first line otherwise the old .csv format is used.

The old -commercial_only still works, but the expected command line is: bbcmicro_parser.exe bbcmicro.co.uk.csv -replay history.sel -select

[jpagen]

This has been really useful navigating my disk images on my MMC. Thanks for developing and sharing!

I have several ssds which report a message in the run.bat log. For example, when adding the following unzipped file to the menu-
http://www.8bs.com/pool/tau/tau86-12.zip

I read that the system needs an EXEC(*opt 4 3) !BOOT rather than a RUN(*opt 4 2) !BOOT so I updated the ssd here-

tau86-12.ssd

(94 KiB) Downloaded 42 times

I added the following to the bbcmicro.co.uk.csv file

Run.bat results in the following message:-

• bbcmicro_parser.exe bbcmicro.co.uk.csv -replay history.sel -select
  Can't currently handle BBCDiscs/AU/Acorn User/tau86-12.ssd game_file -1 pling_boot 0 disc_boot() 3 file_count() 31

I have tried copying the files from the ssd to a new ssd (and tried dsd too) but get the same message.

I have added other files successfully. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[tricky]

The problem very poorly reported is that the program needs to add an extra !BOOT to get back to the master menu and renamed the previous one, but there is no room in the catalog for an extra file.

[tricky]

The problem very poorly reported is that the program needs to add an extra !BOOT to get back to the master menu and renamed the previous one, but there is no room in the catalog for an extra file.

PS I guess that the workaround is to make the new !BOOT have the old one plus the new one in a single file for the first !BOOT on the disc and change the name to run for the first one on each disc.

I may not get to this very quickly as I have some real life to deal with

[jpagen]

The problem very poorly reported is that the program needs to add an extra !BOOT to get back to the master menu and renamed the previous one, but there is no room in the catalog for an extra file.

PS I guess that the workaround is to make the new !BOOT have the old one plus the new one in a single file for the first !BOOT on the disc and change the name to run for the first one on each disc.

I may not get to this very quickly as I have some real life to deal with

Thanks for the quick response Tricky!

I deleted one of the files off the ssd and still had an issue. I opened the ssd in "BBC Explorer"https://www.stairwaytohell.com/essentia ... rer201.zip and noticed it was reporting 32 files in the catalog although manually counting, there were only 30 files. After copying the files to a new ssd I can successfully add the ssd! Thank you

[jpagen]

Hi All

Just to share my experiences in case it helps anyone...although this discussion has been going for a while so everyone may be sorted now.

My Beeb specs

• BBC Model B issue 7 fitted with -
  Watford Electronics DDFS interface(1770FDC) and 1.54T DDFS ROM
  IFEL RAM/Rom board
  Turbo SPI.
  MMFS2 ROM
  ADT ROM
  GOTEK running v3.41 Flashfloppy

TurboSPI/MMFS2 method
After running Tricky's menu Run.Bat, I saved all the files from the MMFS2 folder to the root folder of my TurboSPI memory card.
On my BEEB, *DBOOT 0 successfully runs the menu. When I select an entry, some of the files/disc images run fine but many do not. There is no consistent message. Sometimes I just get a blank screen.
I tried various things including adding the ssd file extension to the disc images but I could not resolve the issue.

GOTEK method
After running Tricky's menu Run.Bat, I saved all the files from the GOTEK folder to the root folder of my GOTEK pendrive.
On my BEEB a SHIFT-Break runs Tricky's Menu. However I get the same message reported previously when I select a menu entry-

GOTEK din
EXEC $.__124__
File not found

This was resolved by replacing the first disk image on the GOTEK pendrive with the GOTEKMenu.ssd file generated by Tricky's application and I switched from using the Watford DDFS ROM to the Acorn DFS 2.26 ROM. All tested disk images now work perfectly from the menu.

After installing the Acorn DFS, I retried the TurboSPI MMFS method but no change which is a shame as the TurboSPI is much quicker loading when it does work.

[tricky]

To have the beeb change disc, it needs to search to track 254 and then follow the protocol.
It seems that some disc filling systems either block this deliberately, maybe to protect a physical drive and so the disc swap can't take place which is what causes the file not found. Similar thing seen to happen with disc doctor.
There also seems to be an issue with some of the newer gotek drives where the communication completed without error but the disc hasn't been swapped. The curious thing here is that seeking to disc 0 works.
I haven't seen mmfs fail but have never tried mmfs2, although reports are that it works. I would have thought that a turbo board would just work as it is the same command as non turbo, so just up to the filling system.
In all cases, having multiple filing systems might cause issues, not just for this menu as it will probably raise PAGE and one may handle commands expected to go to the other, swapping the ROMs may fix one problem and cause another.
Thanks for sharing your experience, hopefully it will help someone else.

[jpagen]

Thanks to Tricky for releasing this tool to help navigate through all my ssds!

Is there a way to restore the default key actions for keys used by the Menu especially <ESCAPE> after a selected ssd loads? *FX4 reinstates the cursor keys but I have been unable to find out how to restore the ESCAPE key function(*FX #) without a Reset/BREAK.

Thanks for any help!

[MillieTD83]

Thanks to Tricky for releasing this tool to help navigate through all my ssds!

Is there a way to restore the default key actions for keys used by the Menu especially <ESCAPE> after a selected ssd loads? *FX4 reinstates the cursor keys but I have been unable to find out how to restore the ESCAPE key function(*FX #) without a Reset/BREAK.

Thanks for any help!

*FX200,0 (or 1) should restore the ESCAPE key to normal.

[jpagen]

Thanks to Tricky for releasing this tool to help navigate through all my ssds!

Is there a way to restore the default key actions for keys used by the Menu especially <ESCAPE> after a selected ssd loads? *FX4 reinstates the cursor keys but I have been unable to find out how to restore the ESCAPE key function(*FX #) without a Reset/BREAK.

Thanks for any help!

*FX200,0 (or 1) should restore the ESCAPE key to normal.

Thanks for the suggestion...unfortunately didn't work for me. I also tried *FX 230 which I read toggles "normal ESCAPE key action" but that didn't work either.