Networking Acorn Machines

[modboy]

I have an A5000, StrongArm Risc PC (also have Arm7 that can be swapped in where needed) and a BBC B

None of my Acorn machines have Econet fitted.

My RiscPC has access to the Internet. I usually transfer files between them via floppy disk. It would be cool to have a home network or Intranet running. Has anyone ever done something like that?

Would I need a Arduino or Rasberry Pi set up? Any directions on how to start this would be well received. Thanks in advance.

[baz4096]

Has anyone ever done something like that?

It's a very common occurrence.

An econet setup usually comprises:

A clock
A wire sockets along the length, terminators at each end and the clock in the middle.
Cable drops to each Econet enabled machine
A file server.
Maybe a print server too, if you're into hard copy.

You have a few options, here's a couple:

Recently, there's been a Raspberry Pi solution developed by several other forum members that provides various services for Econet machines. It's still in development, but my understanding is that it's currently very stable. This can be configured to incorporate a clock, terminators, and even function like a hub for several machines to connect to.

Or, grab a separate clock, terminators, cables, connection boxes, host a server on one of your machines - probably the RiscPC or A5000.

Your BBC B will need an Econet kit fitting - this involves soldering components directly to the mainboard. KenLowe is working on a simpler solution for this.

Your A5000 will need an ADF10 Econet module - this is the same as the one used for BBC Masters.

Your RiscPC will need an Econet Podule - Ken Lowe again to the rescue.

BeebMaster sells a number of Econet related accessories, and maintains an excellent website on the subject.

[modboy]

May I please have a Stardot coupon for all these parts or any beebshop soldering freebies since I rescued all these old computers from the skip and my head still hurts. I can't play piano but I can code a little.

If you can give wholesale price discounts, knock the VAT off and accept a little less cash that would be much appreciated to all those people that were mentioned in last post.

Best,
Some Modders do have em

[jgharston]

My home network is:
|
+--MDFS---\
|.............switch---Laser Printer
+--A5000--/
|
+--M128--serial--WindowsPC--Internet
|
+--BBC--serial--Spectrum
|
+--Compact
|
+--(awaiting Electron)
|
+--downstairs M128
|
+--downstairs A4000
|

[baz4096]

May I please have a Stardot coupon for all these parts or any beebshop soldering freebies since I rescued all these old computers from the skip and my head still hurts. I can't play piano but I can code a little.

If you can give wholesale price discounts, knock the VAT off and accept a little less cash that would be much appreciated to all those people that were mentioned in last post.

You don't have to do all of your machines at once. My econet started life as an ADF10 card for my Master, then a few months later, an econet podule, then an ADF10 for the econet podule, and so on. Took me a while, but I've ended up with:

|
+-- Clock
|
+-- SA RiscPC Level 4 File Server
|
+-- A5000 Alpha
|
+-- Master 128
|
+-- Model B
|

And I have just enough room to add on my A3010 when Ken Lowe's excellent mini podule ADF10 adapter is ready.

[BeebMaster]

Econet is very useful, especially if you have a mixture of machines, as it means you can plonk a file on the file server on one machine and retrieve it on any other machine connected to the Econet, without having to worry about having exactly the same hardware and firmware on the two to be able to transfer between the two.

It's been a gradual process for me, but the latest count I did in August showed that I had 15 machines on my Econet:

They aren't all permanent exhibits, some of the machines give way to others occasionally, and I swap things around in and out of storage. At the moment I can count 16 as in addition to the above, the A5000 is here as well. If I could have persuaded the Acorn Network Computer to take an Econet podule I could get to 17.

[jgharston]

It's been a gradual process for me, but the latest count I did in August showed that I had 15 machines on my Econet:

MachinesAugust2022-2.png

To the author of PiEconetHub: the returned version must be 3.xx or higher, as it indicates the on-the-line transmission protocol used.

Version 1 Econet had 8-bit station ID, 16-bit addressing, no collision arbitration,
packets are dst, src, data, crc; transactions are scout, ack, data, ack
packets with an address in them are dst, src, addr.lo, addr.hi ...

Version 2 Econet had no package acknowledgement
packets are dst, src, data, crc; transactions are scout, data
packets with an address in them are dst, src, addr.lo, addr.hi ...

Version 3 Econet has acknowledge packets, uses 16-bit station IDs, and 32-bit addressing
packets are dst.dst, src.src, data, src; transactions are scout, ack, data, ack
packets with an address in them are dst.dst, src.src, addr.0, addr.1, addr.2, addr.3 ...

The ordering of Immediate Operations also changed between versions, until the "normal" &80+n in version 3.

Different versions cannot interoperate with each other. "Normal" Econet is version 3 Econet.

Version 4 Econet is Version 3 with local buffering
Version 5 Econet is Version 3 for 32-bit clients

[modboy]

I have an MMC card reader for the BBC B. It operates as a hard drive for me. I write files to that via a Windows PC with an MMC card writer if I need something off the Internet. But I have a Risc PC that can access the Internet too and its a shame I do not share files between Acorn machines more directly. I do not have an MMC card writer for my Risc PC. I'm hoping I won't need one or ever need to take the MMC card out of the BBC B again. If I can connect my Risc PC to the BBC with Econet I'd hope to share a file downloaded from the Internet or FTP to the MMC card which is effectively my BBC hard drive.

What would I need just for that?

[baz4096]

What would I need just for that?

Unfortunately, setting up an Econet requires a bunch of one off purchases. Adding additional machines later is relatively cheap by comparison (1 cable + econet interface).

I've included links to Beebmaster's shop for convenience, although you may find similar available elsewhere.


A clock, an econet podule for your RiscPC, configured Level 3 Server application running on the RiscPC, a couple of terminators, some econet wiring (one cable for each machine, and finally an Econet kit for your Beeb.
The econet podule will need an ADF10 Econet Module too.

Code: Select all

Term+----cable---+
                    Clock
   +----cable----+
   |
H  +----cable----+ BBC B with Econet Kit 
U  |
B  +----cable----+ Risc PC with Econet Podule/ADF10 & Level 3 Server application
   |
   +----cable----+Term

Basically this layout with two additional cables - one for each machine.

[KenLowe]

As an alternative to stand alone clocks and terminators, you might want to consider the PiEconetBridge.

This will give you a Pi based File and Print server, a bridge (which allows you to connect Econet networks together - even via the Internet if you want), an Econet clock, termination and easy access to additional Econet ports for expansion. All you need to do is add a Raspberry Pi, which are hopefully becoming a bit more available.

Basically the PiEconetBridge gives you everything you need to get an Econet network up and running in a single unit - other than the Econet hardware that needs to be installed in each computer you want to attach to the network.

[modboy]

Your A5000 will need an ADF10 Econet module - this is the same as the one used for BBC Masters.

Your RiscPC will need an Econet Podule - Ken Lowe again to the rescue.

Sorry I've had so much on; preparing to become a GCSE and A Level Maths teacher. I'm slowly developing a network bridge between my BBC B and Linux. Not quite there yet.

I have a disk manager program running on the Windows Linux subsystem which writes directly to BEEB.MMB on a flashcard booted on BeebEm on my Windows PC and vice versa. Its why eventually the Econet hardware and BBC machine code will interest me further.

But I wish to do another step before that and this is to connect my A5000 directly to the Internet. Could the ADF10 module wait? I'd like to be able to download a file to my A5000 from the Internet. Just as I do for my RiscPC.

eg LCDGameModes 0.21b

From https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/LCDGameModes/

I could download the file to my RiscPC make a disk copy and run it on my A5000 but can the A5000 connect directly to the Internet and download things?

[baz4096]

Technically yes, practically... not so much. My understanding is that a 4mb ARM3 machine is going to struggle with a full internet stack/browser. On top of that, ethernet podules are reasonably hard to come by. So whilst it's possible to get online, A5000s are more suited to Econet.

[modboy]

Ok have a bit of time so I'm back on this. I'd like to learn about the Acorn file systems and what formats are compatible with each of their machines. Could you please recommend books and resources? I'd like to work with several formats that I can use across a PC running BeebEm, BBC B, A5000, and StrongARM RiscPC.

For now I will leave the networking until I know what I want to buy. I already have a bridge from a BeebEm connected micro mmc drive to WLS on my PC. I can download stuff and swap that disk to my BBC using its mmc adaptor.

I would like to update that file handler to do something with my other Acorn machines. Once I experiment and develop a better understanding of the filing systems then I'll go back to networking software for new boards not antique ones that nobody makes anymore.

[davehill]

Econet is very useful, especially if you have a mixture of machines, as it means you can plonk a file on the file server on one machine and retrieve it on any other machine connected to the Econet, without having to worry about having exactly the same hardware and firmware on the two to be able to transfer between the two.

It's been a gradual process for me, but the latest count I did in August showed that I had 15 machines on my Econet:

MachinesAugust2022-2.png

They aren't all permanent exhibits, some of the machines give way to others occasionally, and I swap things around in and out of storage. At the moment I can count 16 as in addition to the above, the A5000 is here as well. If I could have persuaded the Acorn Network Computer to take an Econet podule I could get to 17.

Where can I get a copy of Machines from @Beebmaster ? I have been looking all over.

[BeebMaster]

Well, nowhere probably, as it's my own thing, and there was a bug identified at the Manchester ABug which caused every alternate "pass" of scanning stations to find nothing, which I haven't ironed out yet. But when I do, I can post a listing.